nArAyaNa in the veda-s

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.

I am pleased to read this. As most know I am not a fan of cut 'n paste ( with no additional insight or commentary on the matter), nor is it considered agreeable to the HDF guidelines. As I have mentioned before it gives little insight into the real meaning/value of the śloka-s that are offered.

Cut'n paste is no different then clouds in the summer sky that do not give rain - no crops grow or get nourished.



praṇām

[philosoraptor]

This is a repost of an earlier pramANa with some additional context (Rg veda 1.22.16-20):

ato devā avantu no yato viṣṇurvicakrame |
pṛthivyāḥ saptadhāmabhiḥ ||
idaṃ viṣṇurvi cakrame tredhā ni dadhe padam |
samūḷhamasya pāṃsure ||
trīṇi padā vi cakrame viṣṇurghopā adābhyaḥ |
ato dharmāṇi dhārayan ||
viṣṇoḥ karmāṇi paśyata yato vratāni paspaśe |
indrasya yujyaḥ sakhā ||
tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṃ padaṃ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ |
divīva cakṣurātatam ||
tad viprāso vipanyavo jāghṛvāṃsaḥ samindhate |
viṣṇoryat paramaṃ padam ||

16 The Gods be gracious unto us even from the place whence Viṣṇu strode
Through the seven regions of the earth!
17 Through all this world strode Viṣṇu; thrice his foot he planted, and the whole
Was gathered in his footstep's dust.
18 Viṣṇu, the Guardian, he whom none deceiveth, made three steps; thenceforth
Establishing his high decrees.
19 Look ye on Viṣṇu's works, whereby the Friend of Indra, close-allied,
Hath let his holy ways be seen.
20 The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,
Laid as it were an eye in heaven.
21 This, Viṣṇu's station most sublime, the singers, ever vigilant,
Lovers of holy song, light up.

Some notes on the above mantras:
1) They acknowledge the existence of other gods distinct from Vishnu. In other words, "all gods are the same" is contradicted here.
2) Once again, as in many other places in the Rg veda, reference is made to Vishnu's three strides (covering heaven, earth, and everyone) which is a metaphor for His omnipresence.
3) Griffith somewhat akwardly translates "suri" as "prince." Vaishnavas, especially Sri Vaishnavas usually understand this to refer to the "nitya-suris" or in other words, those liberated souls in Vaikuntha who behold Him in person.
4) RV 1.22.20 clearly mentions the "paramam padam" or "supreme abode" of Vishnu - this is a very clear reference to His supremacy, contradicting the European view that Vishnu is merely a minor solar deity.
5) The last two mantras are often heard chanted at pujas to Vishnu during mangala-Arati. They are very beautiful when chanted properly and of very potent philosophical significance.

[philosoraptor]

Rg veda 3.54.14:

viṣṇuṃ stomāsaḥ purudasmamarkā bhaghasyeva kāriṇo yāmani ghman |
urukramaḥ kakuho yasya pūrvirna mardhanti yuvatayojanitrīḥ ||

14 To Viṣṇu rich in marvels, songs And praises shall go as singers on the road of Bhaga,� The Chieftain of the Mighty Stride, whose Mothers, the many young Dames, never disregard him.

Rg veda 3.55.10:

viṣṇurghopāḥ paramaṃ pāti pāthaḥ priyā dhāmānyamṛtādadhānaḥ |
aghniṣ ṭā viśvā bhuvanāni veda ma... ||

10 Viṣṇu, the guardian, keeps the loftiest station, upholding dear, immortal dwelling-places. Agni knows well all these created beings. Great is the Gods� supreme and sole dominion.

[philosoraptor]

Rg veda 7.99.1-7:

paro mātrayā tanvṛ vṛdhāna na te mahitvam anv aśnuvanti |
ubhe te vidma rajasī pṛthivyā viṣṇo deva tvam paramasya vitse ||
na te viṣṇo jāyamāno na jāto deva mahimnaḥ param antam āpa |
ud astabhnā nākam ṛṣvam bṛhantaṃ dādhartha prācīṃ kakubham pṛthivyāḥ ||
irāvatī dhenumatī hi bhūtaṃ sūyavasinī manuṣe daśasyā |
vy astabhnā rodasī viṣṇav ete dādhartha pṛthivīm abhito mayūkhaiḥ ||
uruṃ yaj�āya cakrathur ulokaṃ janayantā sūryam uṣāsam aghnim |
dāsasya cid vṛṣaśiprasya māyā jaghnathur narā pṛtanājyeṣu ||
indrāviṣṇū dṛṃhitāḥ śambarasya nava puro navatiṃ ca śnathiṣṭam |
śataṃ varcinaḥ sahasraṃ ca sākaṃ hatho apraty asurasya vīrān ||
iyam manīṣā bṛhatī bṛhantorukramā tavasā vardhayantī |
rare vāṃ stomaṃ vidatheṣu viṣṇo pinvatam iṣo vṛjaneṣv indra ||
vaṣaṭ te viṣṇav āsa ā kṛṇomi tan me juṣasva śipiviṣṭa havyam |
vardhantu tvā suṣṭutayo ghiro me yūyam pāta svastibhiḥ sadā naḥ ||

1. MEN come not nigh thy majesty who growest beyond all bound and measure with thy body.
Both thy two regions of the earth, O Viṣṇu, we know: thou God, knowest the highest also.
2 None who is born or being born, God Viṣṇu, hath reached the utmost limit of thy grandeur.
The vast high vault of heaven hast thou supported, and fixed earth's eastern pinnacle securely.
3 Rich in sweet food be ye, and rich in milch-kine, with fertile pastures, fain to do men service.
Both these worlds, Viṣṇu, hast thou stayed asunder, and firmly fixed the earth with pegs around it.
4 Ye have made spacious room for sacrificing by generating Sūrya, Dawn, and Agni.
O Heroes, ye have conquered in your battles even the bull-jawed Dāsa's wiles and magic.
5 Ye have destroyed, thou, Indra, and thou Viṣṇu, Śambara's nine-and-ninety fenced castles.
Ye Twain smote down a hundred times a thousand resistless heroes of the royal Varcin.
6 This is the lofty hymn of praise, exalting the Lords of Mighty Stride, the strong and lofty.
I laud you in the solemn synods, Viṣṇu: pour ye food on us in our camps, O Indra.
7 O Viṣṇu, unto thee my lips cry Vaṣaṭ! Let this mine offering, Sipivista, please thee.
May these my songs of eulogy exalt thee. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

Notes:

Here is another clear reference to Vishnu's supremacy, though I admit the translator's archaic English makes it difficult to appreciate. God Vishnu's majesty cannot be approached by men, as His body is said to be boundless and immeasureable. The mantras further state that no one born can appreciate His glories - this would include even devas since devas also undergo birth. Vishnu is said to generate Surya, dawn, and Agni (note that Vishnu/Brahman is also referred to as Agni in other contexts, so this is an example in which context has to be used to determine which entity is being referred to - since the created being Agni is clearly meant here, it is a reference to the presiding deity of fire and not to Brahman). Of interest, many Rig vedic mantras mention Vishnu together with Indra. Sometimes the term "Indra" is also used to denote Brahman/Vishnu as opposed to the king of the devas, and this appears to be its usage in the 6th mantra.

[philosoraptor]

Some may wonder why I am not quoting other mantras in which Rudra, or Indra, or Agni is described as supreme. Isn't this presentation one-sided? The answer, both according to common sense and according to vedAntic principles of interpretation, is that there can only be one Supreme Deity aka Brahman. Thus, for Vaishnava Vedaantins, there is no problem whatsoever with the idea of Brahman being called "Rudra," "Indra," "Vaayu," "Agni," etc.

Many of these names denote specific attributes, and thus they can be possessed by the Lord of all attributes (i.e. Brahman) or in a created being who is specifically known for having those attributes. For example, "Indra" means "Lord" or "King" - it is not a proper noun, and could be interpreted to mean other entities besides the king of the devas in svarga.

Then one might question - how do you know that the Vishnu who is described as a supreme deity is in fact the commonly-understood entity known as Vishnu, as opposed to another deity? This will be elaborated upon later, but in brief, there are additional descriptors in some the evidence which specifically points to the commonly understood Vishnu (for example, having Sri as His consort). Furthermore, some Vedic names for Brahman, like "nArAyaNa" are proper nouns which according to pAnini's rules of grammar can only be interpreted in one way. "nArAyaNa" is never used to describe any other deity, and as was pointed out earlier, "nArAyaNa" is equated to the viShNu of the vedas. This will be elaborated upon later.

For now, readers may wish to check my earlier posting http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...53&postcount=4 which summarizes some of the evidence clearly showing that the Vedas acknowledge the existence of other gods (devas) who are different from, and subserviant to, Brahman. This is just to refute the commonly held misunderstanding that all gods mentioned everywhere are identical, which is a recent idea that is of non-Vedic origin. The "oneness" of other gods with Brahman is based on His being their indwelling controller, just as He lives with all of us. This is obviously, a distinct but related topic, so I will try not to digress on it too much here.

[Omkara]

I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent here,but I have a doubt regarding the interpretation philosoraptor is setting out here.

In this book(http://books.google.co.in/books?id=e...tput=html_text) S.M.Srinivasachari says in page 149-150 that Ramanuja says that in the Atharvasiras upanishad (I have posted the upanishad at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10407 post no. 44 in case you want to refer it) when Rudra declares himself to be supreme,it is actually vishnu speaking through him and the passages which speak of rudra being supreme,even when they identify Rudra as Umapati actually refer to the indwelling controller of Rudra.This method is used to interpret the devas calling Rudra supreme in the Bhagavatam during the Samudra manthan.My query us that is this the way vaishnavas interpret all references in the vedas to the supreme being referred to with specific identificatory marks of another deity such as "him with matted hair","he who has three eyes","he who has a blue throat"he who dwells on the sacred mountain'"wearer of skins""he who is uma""umapati""ambikapati""destroyer of tripura" etc.?

Excellent work so far! Your presentation of pramanas is more systematic than mine was in the other thread.

[shian]

its beautiful !

[Omkara]

I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent here,but I have a doubt regarding the interpretation philosoraptor is setting out here.

In this book(http://books.google.co.in/books?id=e...tput=html_text) S.M.Srinivasachari says in page 149-150 that Ramanuja says that in the Atharvasiras upanishad (I have posted the upanishad at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10407 post no. 44 in case you want to refer it) when Rudra declares himself to be supreme,it is actually vishnu speaking through him and the passages which speak of rudra being supreme,even when they identify Rudra as Umapati actually refer to the indwelling controller of Rudra.This method is used to interpret the devas calling Rudra supreme in the Bhagavatam during the Samudra manthan.My query us that is this the way vaishnavas interpret all references in the vedas to the supreme being referred to with specific identificatory marks of another deity such as "him with matted hair","he who has three eyes","he who has a blue throat"he who dwells on the sacred mountain'"wearer of skins""he who is uma""umapati""ambikapati""destroyer of tripura" etc.?

Excellent work so far! Your presentation of pramanas is more systematic than mine was in the other thread.

It appears the answer to my question is yes.

This is from a SriVaishnava Website regarding Atharvashiras Upanishad-

Rudra has not declared his supremacy but has spoken so because of his thatva-jgnyAna obtained through the study of SAstra " SAstra- drushtyA thu upadESa vAmaDevavath " that he is the body of VishNu and VishNu is the soul - antaryAmi. He has declared the supremacy of VishNu who is the antaryAmi of all jIvAthmAs and achit. As Rudra had realized his Seshatva-pAratantriyams, he being a jIvAthman with tatva-jgnyAna declared the paramAthmA's supremacy. Therefore the para-thatvam is VishNu. Absolutely this point gets established in the Sruthi.

[philosoraptor]

It appears the answer to my question is yes.

This is from a SriVaishnava Website regarding Atharvashiras Upanishad-

Rudra has not declared his supremacy but has spoken so because of his thatva-jgnyAna obtained through the study of SAstra " SAstra- drushtyA thu upadESa vAmaDevavath " that he is the body of VishNu and VishNu is the soul - antaryAmi. He has declared the supremacy of VishNu who is the antaryAmi of all jIvAthmAs and achit. As Rudra had realized his Seshatva-pAratantriyams, he being a jIvAthman with tatva-jgnyAna declared the paramAthmA's supremacy. Therefore the para-thatvam is VishNu. Absolutely this point gets established in the Sruthi.

I have not studied this Upanishad or the book you quoted, so I can't comment too much. However, that understanding is consistent with what I have read elsewhere. The Vishishtadvaitic paradigm strongly emphasizes the body-soul relationship of the jiva to Brahman, so much so that the realization of it is perceived as oneness even as difference is understood, e.g. I am His body to command, and so forth. The BrihadAranyaka Upanishad, which is strongly vishishtaadvaitic in character, contains a passage in which the jIva, realizing his identity as the body of Brahman, proclaims that he is Brahman. By that standard, Rudra realizing his oneness with Brahman and proclaiming that he is Brahman would certainly be consistent.

I agree that we should devote a separate thread to comparing and contrasting the Vaishnava and Shaivite interpretations of shruti, to do that subject justice.

[philosoraptor]

Rg veda 7.100.1-7:

nū marto dayate saniṣyan yo viṣṇava urughāyāya dāśat |
pra yaḥ satrācā manasā yajāta etāvantaṃ naryam āvivāsāt ||
tvaṃ viṣṇo sumatiṃ viśvajanyām aprayutām evayāvo matiṃ dāḥ |
parco yathā naḥ suvitasya bhūrer aśvāvataḥ puruścandrasya rāyaḥ ||
trir devaḥ pṛthivīm eṣa etāṃ vi cakrame śatarcasam mahitvā |
pra viṣṇur astu tavasas tavīyān tveṣaṃ hy asya sthavirasya nāma ||
vi cakrame pṛthivīm eṣa etāṃ kṣetrāya viṣṇur manuṣe daśasyan |
dhruvāso asya kīrayo janāsa urukṣitiṃ sujanimā cakāra ||
pra tat te adya śipiviṣṭa nāmāryaḥ śaṃsāmi vayunāni vidvān |
taṃ tvā ghṛṇāmi tavasam atavyān kṣayantam asya rajasaḥ parāke ||
kim it te viṣṇo paricakṣyam bhūt pra yad vavakṣe śipiviṣṭo asmi |
mā varpo asmad apa ghūha etad yad anyarūpaḥ samithe babhūtha ||
vaṣaṭ te viṣṇav āsa ā kṛṇomi tan me juṣasva śipiviṣṭa havyam |
vardhantu tvā suṣṭutayo ghiro me yūyam pāta svastibhiḥ sadā naḥ ||

1 NE�ER doth the man repent, who, seeking profit, bringeth his gift to the far-striding Viṣṇu.
He who adoreth him with all his spirit winneth himself so great a benefactor.
2 Thou, Viṣṇu, constant in thy courses, gavest good-will to all men, and a hymn that lasteth,
That thou mightst move us to abundant comfort of very splendid wealth with store of horses.
3 Three times strode forth this God in all his grandeur over this earth bright with a hundred splendours.
Foremost be Viṣṇu, stronger than the strongest: for glorious is his name who lives for ever.
4 Over this earth with mighty step strode Viṣṇu, ready to give it for a home to Manu.
In him the humble people trust for safety: he, nobly born, hath made them spacious dwellings.
5 To-day I laud this name, O gipivista, I, skilled in rules, the name of thee the Noble.
Yea, I the poor and weak praise thee the Mighty who dwellest in the realm beyond this region.
6 What was there to be blamed in thee, O Viṣṇu, when thou declaredst, I am Sipivista?
Hide not this form from us, nor keep it secret, since thou didst wear another shape in battle.
7 O Viṣṇu, unto thee my lips cry Vaṣaṭ! Let this mine offering, Sipivista, please thee.
May these my songs of eulogy exalt thee. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.