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Thread: how is brahma attributeless?

  1. #1

    how is brahma attributeless?

    hi, im kinda new here, and I have a question regarding the philosophy of hinduism
    brahma is stated to be attributeless by many religious-experts/seers/etc... but what i find weird is that he is still said to be formless, divisionless, eternal, changeless, etc... but these are still attributes aren't they?
    please help, im kinda confused O_O

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~


    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwerer View Post
    brahma is stated to be attributeless by many religious-experts/seers/etc... but what i find weird is that he is still said to be formless, divisionless, eternal, changeless, etc... but these are still attributes aren't they?
    please help, im kinda confused O_O
    Because we are of the human condition we live in the world of name a form. We are stuck with words.

    We are told that brahman is uccārarahitam vastu¹ - Reality that is devoid/deprived of utterance or pronunciation. So , the problem begins. How to describe the Supreme that we are informed is na agrāhya - not graspable ? That is, the totality of brahman is not an object of knowledge.
    The wise try and give us hints - unchangable, infinite, etc. - words no less, but something to help the finite being (humans) in our present condition (ignorance of our true Self).

    praām

    words

    • vastu वस्तु - Reality or essence ; any really existing or abiding substance or essence , thing , object , article
    • rahita रहित - deprived or void or destitute ; left , quitted , forsaken , deserted , lonely , solitary;
    • uccārá उच्चार - pronunciation , utterance or uccārita pronounced , uttered , articulated
    • uccārarahitam vastu - Reality that is devoid/deprived of utterance or pronunciation


    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Perhaps this thread should be in the Advaita subfolder rather than the general philosophy forum.

    Advaita subscribes to spiritual monism. That is, reality is one undivided whole and this is ALL that exists. Now, IF this is granted then no real attribute can be predicated of this reality for then the question would become - is the attribute the same as the essence OR is it different. Advaita (or for that matter, any spiritually monistic philosophy) would subscribe to the former for the latter leads to duality. Dualistic schools (Dvaita/V Advaita, etc) would believe in the latter.

    So, the closest definition of Brahman in Hindu texts is that Brahman is (definition of essence) Truth-Knowledge-Infinity-Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. Now, the various components in this definition are NOT attributes, per Advaita. They are essences and these essences, in themselves, are also non-different from each other. That is, Brahman = Truth = Knowledge = Infinity = Existence = Consciousness = Bliss.

    Another type of reductio argument brought forward by Advaita is that any philosophy that subscribes to a God with attribute immediately falls prey to the attribute-sovereignity paradox. i.e. Is God bound by his/her/its attributes? If yes, then God is NOT sovereign/independent. If not, then why predicate attributes of him/her/it? This thread may be of interest in that regard.

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwerer View Post
    hi, im kinda new here, and I have a question regarding the philosophy of hinduism
    brahma is stated to be attributeless by many religious-experts/seers/etc... but what i find weird is that he is still said to be formless, divisionless, eternal, changeless, etc... but these are still attributes aren't they?
    please help, im kinda confused O_O
    You will not be able to understand. Forget it.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Yajvanji has already given the answer.

    Attribute is something which changes and is time / space dependent. When we say attributeless, then it time / space independent.

    When it is attributeless, it cannot be having any attribute.

    Our mind can grasp what is sensed by our senses. If one sense is closed, it will grasp less. If one more sense is there it will grasp more. In present context, we can grasp as much as our mind with present senses can grasp. It is still in the universe of matter (i.e. subtle matter to gross matter). Mind is part of subtle matter.

    Brahman is beyond subtle matter. So how to grasp brahman ? There is no way to grasp or understand brahman. That is why is it beyond imagination, purest of pure, beyond time, space, having independent existence (all others are dependent on it), etc.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    It is always good we talk of the Supreme. Yet, we are trying to describe something that is indescribable. So, we come up with these words of manifest and unmanifest so our brains can wrap the ideas and notions in words.


    Yet the wise tell is this... This brahman is pūrṇa - fullness, plenty, abundance; wholeness; It is anāhata defined as unbeaten , not multiplied. It is another way of saying the 'wholeness' state of Being. We are told it has the quality of ād vyāpana, meaning to go , pervade, or cover thoroughly.

    A more common word is viśva which = all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent; this is the funamental root of viṣṇu. And if we use the word śiva it is rooted in śī , 'in whom all things lie' , which meets with the defintion of viśva.


    Yet many times we talk of the the notion of the transcendent, as being within or away to go away from (avasthā - to go down into). This may be so, yet when we hear the wise speak of this they talk of satatoditam¹. It means that which has no pause, no break. This for me really captures the essence of this totality, the fullness or pūrṇa . It is breakless and unitary.
    We can think of an iceberg. We see it above the water and we can say it is manifest. Yet too, it resides below the water, and can call that unmanifest. Yet it is whole, full, with no seam in the middle, between its apparent and hidden parts & that occur at the water line.



    praṇām




    1. satatoditam - If I look at this word as sat + a-tu + dita , it tells me that which really is (sat) + not (a) + to have authority (tu) + bound or divided (dita). Or that Reality that cannot be bound or divided

    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Salutions Anwerer,

    Quote Originally Posted by Anwerer View Post
    hi, im kinda new here, and I have a question regarding the philosophy of hinduism
    brahma is stated to be attributeless by many religious-experts/seers/etc... but what i find weird is that he is still said to be formless, divisionless, eternal, changeless, etc... but these are still attributes aren't they?
    please help, im kinda confused O_O
    Don't try to think of it in that way. Here's a better way to put this: Brahman is "something" without a form, something that cannot be divided, something that is not bound by time and space, something that never changes, something without attributes, something without any relation, something which is not finite, something which is not comprehensible, etc....
    We can know Brahman only by that which is not brahman, i.e only in a negative manner. Brahman is neither this, nor that.
    No word or words can describe brahman, we only use these words because for us to understand something, we need to make that something an object in our mind and imagine it, that is why words are essential to know something, even though it cannot be known.

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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Is'nt attributelessness an attribute?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Is'nt attributelessness an attribute?
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    You will not be able to understand. Forget it.

    OM
    Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent Of everything you think, And of everything you do, Is for yourself —And there isn't one

  10. #10

    Re: how is brahma attributeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    You will not be able to understand. Forget it.

    OM
    Funny you say something as arrogant and authoritative as this and add a smiley face at the end.

    You should explain why you hold this view if you don't want people to take unwanted meanings from this.

    (I understand this and agree but others might take it differently)
    Last edited by Kumar_Das; 19 December 2012 at 10:09 AM.

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