Material Cause of the Universe

[brahman]

Dear Deovotee,

To remind myself and others, the frame of reference under consideration is the material cause of the universe.

Devotee writes:

Brahman being indivisible and unchanging can't be material cause of this universe.

both the causes must come from Brahman otherwise, non-duality of Brahman is violated.

The fact is that there is no material at all and therefore, there is no need to be a material cause at all.

So, if we need a material cause for the sake of our mental satisfaction, we must accept that ignorance alone is the material cause of the snake.

There no disagreement to these apparently contradicting statements, provided, we fit these situation into the total structure of the entire universe.

From my earlier post

We already have seen what superimposition is.

But, before the existence of something can be denied, refuted or negated, we must conceptualize the existence of it in order to do so.
What is here to be negated is our world experience, which can be scientifically termed here as �effect�.

And no effect can proceed except from a cause.

Would like to hear more on this.

Devotee writes:

Now, can we say that rope is the material cause of the snake perceived? No. Snake is only a thought conjured up by the ignorance caused by presence of darkness. So, if we need a material cause for the sake of our mental satisfaction, we must accept that ignorance alone is the material cause of the snake.

I ask the same question again, if the element of darkness is removed the snake should vanish. If you agree to this, here in this analogy, snake resembles the world. On removal of ignorance, what happens to the world?

Love

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast� devotee

Namaste Yajvan,
I don't see much difference between what is offered by Advaita VedAnta and Kashmir Shaivism except the choice of words and choice of way to explain the things. When I say that the creation is due to MAyA and that is again born out of Brahman and Brahman alone exists ... is as good as saying that it is basically nothing but expansion of Brahman.

Yes, you would think this is true as both are monistic. Yet there are several ( 10 major ones I can think of) differences; These differences (nānātmapakṣa) if outlined will only derail your string and this is not needed. Perhaps a new string with this as the core subject matter at a later date will be of value.

The reader must also consider 'different' does not = better, nor does it mean 'less than'.


praṇām

[devotee]

I ask the same question again, if the element of darkness is removed the snake should vanish. If you agree to this, here in this analogy, snake resembles the world. On removal of ignorance, what happens to the world?

I don't know why you didn't answer my question which would have helped you to understand your problem. Your question is not valid from Advaita point of view.

Let's first answer these questions :

Who is deluded and whose ignorance is removed ? Is it the snake ? The answer is no. The ignorance is imposed on the observer and for observer alone the snake would vanish. It won't vanish for any other deluded people which might be around during this phenomenon.

Your question is that once a seeker becomes enlightened, he should vanish ! How is it possible ? The real seeker is the reflection of Brahman shining within the intellect of the body-mind entity we refer to as the seeker. This is what is deluded and this is what would melt into Brahman without any distinction and for him the world around him will vanish. However, the enlightenment of individual Jeeva means removal of individual Avidya and not removal of Cosmic delusion. See, the individual ignorance (Avidya) is different from MAyA i.e. the Cosmic delusion. So, when Avidya of an individual is removed, the Cosmic delusion keeps acting for other beings.

The problem is that You are trying to see the Seeker's body vanish on his enlightenment when your ignorance has not been removed. How is that possible ? Yes, if you become enlightened, then the world around you would vanish (when you are one with the Cosmic Consciousness). However, when the enlightened being is back to waking state, he still sees the world but he doesn't see it as a common person sees it.

OM

[Nondual]

Brahman (I am here referring to the user by this name),

You're trying to grasp turiya while still in the waking state, which is not possible. At best, we can infer it. So the question (why is the world still here?) is fundamentally flawed because you're asking this in the waking state. In turiya, where nothing other than Brahman exists, such questions won't arise.

[brahman]

Dear Devotee,

I don't know why you didn't answer my question
OM

The question was

"Seeker should disappear" --- Lol !

What is a seeker ... the body ?

Answer to your question is within your post itself, it reads

The real seeker is the reflection of Brahman shining within the intellect of the body-mind entity we refer to as the seeker.

Admission of the existence of body mind entity is an admission of existence of the apparent world. But I comprehend this general agreement of existence belongs to a philosophical category as understood in Vedanta as �effect�.

In order to substantiate the belief(everything is consciousness in essence)and to ascertain the certitude, vedantic speculation resorts itself to the method of negation as an effective methodological tool.

So my question is

how do we philosophically negate what has been philosophically agreed as existence of the body-mind entity in terms of an efficient methodology to arrive at the truth Vedanta propounds.

Love

[brahman]

Namaste Brahman,

I would call it as playing games, which I don't like.

So, I would like to know what answer you want to offer. This will also benefit me if there is any snag in my understanding.

OM

Dear Devotee,

Every game has its rules and these rules must be recognized as valid within the frame of reference of the game.
At the same there is no disagreement to the nature of certutiude that varies in different individuals. However, the demonstration of the certitude of the scrpitures remains the same.

An authority on this subject comments, excerpts of which reads,

�Even a child can de-pair a rare Rolex wrist watch and discover its dial, diamonds, digits and disc wheels in awe and wonder.
To re-pair it back to a running mechanism rendering right time, which is the purpose of the entire mechanism requires rigorous expertise.�

Seated here at this side is a novice watch mechanic with questions alone and no answers, but questions with nourishing notions of knowledge. Love