Material Cause of the Universe

[devotee]

Namaste Brahman,

.
As a profound self seeker, how do you easily reconcile these two different statements implicit in the same thread?

First of all, I would like us to confront these two arguments which appear valid simultaneously. Do you agree that both the arguments appear to be correct from their own perspective ?

Actually, many characteristics of Self are seemingly contradictory due to our limitation of mind to understand the Reality. This becomes quite clear while we read Isa Upanishad and other Upanishads. I am trying to reconcile with these arguments simultaneously and I need your/other members' help too.

OM

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

Oh, no ! My idea is not to show anyone's views supremacy here in this thread but to understand the delicate points on this subject from various angles with contributions from knowledgeable members here.

Yes, I viewed your posts in this manner, to bring out the more delicate points. I mentioned the māyā concern in general, as various members (excluding present company) tend to get hung-up on this simple but profound idea and we end up with the tribunal of trying to clearly define māyā for the satisfaction of many.

you write,

MAndukya Upanishad makes it clear by the term used for God, "Undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness",

We find this also in the mālinīvijayottara tantra:

Pracayaṁ rūpātītaṁ ca samyak turyamudāhṛtaṁ|
Mahāpracayamicchanti turyātītaṁ vicakṣaṇāḥ ||38||

Turya -the fourth state of consciousness-- (turyam) is said to be (udāhṛtam) truly (samy�k) pracaya -lit. the Mass- (pracayam) and (ca) rūpātītam -the state beyond rūpastha or deep sleep- (rūp�-atītam). The wise (vicakṣaṇāḥ) wish (to attain) (icchanti) mahāpracaya -lit. the Great Mass, the great fullness, totality - (mahāpracayam) (also known as) turyātīta - lit. beyond the fourth - (turya-atītam)


praṇām

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

'creating and entering into it.'

The conversation in post 10 above...the bhāgavad gītā , chapter 9 , 8th śloka helps us with this matter:

prakṛtim svām avastabhya
visrjami punaḥ punaḥ |
bhūta-grāmam imaṁ kṛtsnam
avaśaṁ prakṛter vaśāt ||

This says curving back (leaning, resting-upon or avaṣṭabhya) onto my SELF (svām) I create (visṛjāmi) again and again (punaḥ punaḥ).
All this (kṛtsnam) which exists ( manifestation and variety bhūta-grāmam) , that comes into creation (prakṛti) is done by my authority or command (vaśāt).

That is, the Supreme never has to go outside itSelf to do any thing.

praṇām

[brahman]

Namaste Brahman,



I am trying to reconcile with these arguments simultaneously and I need your/other members' help too.

OM

Dear Devotee,

I would be happy to lend a hand for such a noble stand.

Back to the topic again:

An add-on to the subject matter of the �frame of reference� i.e. the �Material Cause of the Universe�

Now we see two different situations;

1. Brahman cannot be the material cause of the Universe

If not Brahman there should an alternative material cause?

2. Brahman is the material cause of the universe.

So how these two different material causes for a single situation are to be understood in deeper philosophy, which is an inevitable part of the Self-Realization, is to be discussed.

----------

A kind note:

Hope to see we go again and again to the bottom of our experience carefully avoiding all habitual chains of reasoning. I understand that these prejudices cannot easily be eradicated, but lasting peace will remain a far dream until we find adequate solution to transcend these poetic fancies and semantic verbosity.

Love

[devotee]

Namaste,

The verse quoted by Yajvan ji is quite pertinent here. Lord Krishna says that he creates again and again by using his power of MAyA (prakriti) taking the support of the Self.

My dear Brahman, in my opinion, contemplation on the Advaitic thoughts does gives you deeper understanding of subject and makes you firm in your belief. Practice has to be there in the form of meditation etc. but discussion on Shruti also is a part of Advaitic SAdhana.

I would like to offer my way of understanding this :

a) The problem arises because mind can reason only within axioms known to it. Its reasoning becomes useless once you cross the boundaries of axioms applicable to the waking state to which we belong.

Now, let's see the issue of "Material Cause" :

The fact is that there is no material at all and therefore, there is no need to be a material cause at all. Now, if there is no material then what it is ? Now, let's see how Universe has been perceived in Advaita :

a) It is like superimposition of snake on a rope :

Now, can we say that rope is the material cause of the snake perceived ? No. Snake is only a thought conjured up by the ignorance caused by presence of darkness. So, if we need a material cause for the sake of our mental satisfaction, we must accept that ignorance alone is the material cause of the snake.

Now, the issue doesn't end here. In the analogy of snake over rope, the snake is non-existent and doesn't act, enjoys or suffers or realises that it is rope and not snake. It is non-existent and behaves like a non-existent. However, the universe doesn't exactly behave like non-existent. It acts logically and consistently, enjoys and suffers.

How does a non-existent thing act logically and consistently, enjoys, suffers and on removal of MAyA realises itself as Brahman ?

This is explained by the phenomenon of ChidAbhAsa which is unique characteristic of Consciousness and MAyA.

b) How does it work ?

As Yajvan ji has said, MAyA is not an external entity. It is the power of Brahman or Pure Consciousness. Brahman/Pure Consciousness can exist with MAyA or without it. To understand this we can think of the characteristics of our mind which is nothing but Conditioned Consciousness. Now, mind can exist with thought-waves or even without it. Whether it is with thought-waves or without it, it remains mind alone and doesn't undergo any change. Gaudapad has equated Brahman when apparently acting as Saguna Brahman or Universe as a firebrand in motion. He says that the "vibration" of consciousness conjures up this universe/multitude. Now, again this word, "vibration" must not be thought of as vibration of matter. It is Consciousness with mind-waves.

Let's go back to our snake over rope analogy again. In the material world, the snake conjured up by imagination doesn't act intelligently even apparently whereas this world does. However, in case of Brahman, the universe created by the power of thought-waves within Pure-Consciousness (Itself) is like snake on the rope but this snake acts intelligently due to special characteristic of Brahman. Brahman is not only an inert substratum like the rope of the snake, by its unique power it causes its own consciousness to reflect (though in conditioned way) through the conjured up snake i.e. the world and the world acts as conscious.

This property of consciousness is not very difficult to understand if we analyse our dreams. The one consciousness of the dreamer reflects through all dream characters in the dream and that is how, the one consciousness creates a multitude of characters in the dream which act intelligently and seemingly independently due to the power of reflected consciousness of the dreamer.

Now, the reflected Consciousness in essence is the Pure Consciousness alone. Therefore, on removal of MAyA it merges into the substratum i.e. the Pure Consciousness and the Self-realisation occurs.

So, how is the Universe created ?

It has three elements :

a) MAYA, the power of Brahman, which remains hidden within Brahman in NirguNa state. Brahman exists both with and without it.
b) Impressions of the past : Please remember that MAyA is AnAdi (beginningless) and therefore, the world is created as it was created "before". Stored in Chit of Pure Consciousness
c) ChidAbhAs i.e. reflection of Pure Consciousness through the Conjured up Universe by MAyA (Ref : Prakriti is the Mother and I am the father who sows the seed for creation of all these beings (Bhgawda Gita))

Note :

We must note that all elements of Creation have their roots only in Brahman as Brahman alone exists.

I have several commentaries of Sri Suresvara and Shankara on this issue and I owe quite a lot to those commentaries in understanding the concept. I would also like to say that in spite of whatever has been stated above, it is only a close approximation of the Reality. The Reality, as it really is, is not expressible in words.

I hope it helps.

OM

[brahman]

Dear Devotee,

Super imposition of the universe has been explained.

But a proper philosophical study should take into account the concrete facts of life. It is easy to say that the world is a cosmic projection or superimposition, but it makes little sense if we do not follow an explanation of it from the standpoint of our experience.

Superimposition establishes the state of bondage, of which there is no doubt, while the systematic denial of the superimposed false hood alone brings one to the state of complete certitude is a fact.

As Vedanta is not mere spiritualism or materialism, it precedes its search for truth from two valid stand points viz. 1. Superimposition and 2.consistent refutation or negation.

We already have seen what superimposition is.

But, before the existence of something can be denied, refuted or negated, we must conceptualize the existence of it in order to do so.
What is here to be negated is our world experience, which can be scientifically termed here as �effect�.

And no effect can proceed except from a cause.

-----------

Namaste,

Snake is only a thought conjured up by the ignorance caused by presence of darkness.

OM

Then, if the element of darkness is removed the snake should vanish.
Here in this analogy, snake resembles the world.
So, upon realization the seeker should disappear and merged into the abstract consciousness.

How can we ever have Realized Gurus?

Love

[kallol]

Devoteeji,

You had earlier replied in one of the threads, as we breakdown from system to subsystem to the final end it is only Brahman.

How do we see gross matter at different level ? Muons, protons, atoms, molecules, cells, organs, animals or trees ? All these are different level of energies. This I am saying about the inert part. Add to this the next dimension - Mind.

Mind at various level. Mind through which we perceive through the cells, organs or bodies. Even beyond - the societies, countries, world and beyond. The lower minds contribute to higher mind. The minds perceive at different level.

What if mind was not there ? The next level would have been absent. Maya is out of mind. The matter is out of mind. Karma is out of mind.

Again these 3 layers matter, subtle matter, consciousness constantly merge and unmerge into the adjacent layers, just like the protons and neutrons or the different layers of sea water of different densities. The outer most has the most turbulence and sometimes we see froth (visible matter ) also.

At the depth of it is calm turiya condition.

It is the same brahman throughout. However in different manifestation. Does it mean Brahman has characteristics, it can change ?

We need to answer this.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

What conclusions has the HDF authors and perhaps the readers of the above posts come to ? Is there an ahh-ha ! (?).

For me ( and perhaps me alone ) it is the perpetual notion that the Supreme is this mass of consciousness without break or pause. As mentioned in post #12 above the mālinīvijayottara tantra calls this out, the māṇḍūkya upaniṣad also calls this out. Is there another ? Yes... the paramārthasāra also calls this out. The very first śloka says the following:

cidghano'pi jaganmūrtyā śyāno yaḥ sa jayatyajaḥ|
svātmapracchādanakrīḍāvidagdhaḥ parameśvaraḥ |1|

this says,

Glory to the Supreme (parama-īśvaraḥ) the unborn one who is skillful in the art of playing to conceal His own Self (sva-ātma) who , though being a compact mass (ghana) of consciousness (cit), is coagulated (śyānaḥ) in the form (mūrtyā) of the world or universe (jagat) ||


But you say, o'yajvan, you are just talking from this kaśmir śaivism window once again...

I say, one must be aware that this paramārthasāra original composition is attributed to ādiśeṣa some call anantātha, others call ādhāra and still others call pata�jali. This work is considered a vaiṣṇavite text , and the text teaches of a unified (monistic) view of Reality and therefore the essence of vedānta ( in full bloom) .
Yet, for my studies, once again abhinavagupta-ji has chosen to apply his intellectual vivṛti� to this śāstra viewing it as a purely monistic śaivite philosophy. His additions and extentions ( going form 85 śloka-s to 105 śloka-s) brings it into the realm of āgamic scriptures�.


praṇām


words

• vivṛti -making clear or manifest , explanation , exposition , gloss , comment , interpretation
• additions and extentions and āgamic scriptures - so says yogarāja-ji, the commentor and value-aid ācārya (teacher, guide) who offers his insights on abhinavagupa-ji's work

[devotee]

Namaste Kallol,

You had earlier replied in one of the threads, as we breakdown from system to subsystem to the final end it is only Brahman.

Right. When all forms and names (which is due to MAyA and MAyA alone) are stripped from anything, what remains is Brahman.

What if mind was not there ? The next level would have been absent. Maya is out of mind. The matter is out of mind. Karma is out of mind.

Yes, it can be said so. However, MAyA and mind cannot be separated. Mind is a product of MAyA and Brahman's chidAbhAsa.

It is the same Brahman throughout. However in different manifestation. Does it mean Brahman has characteristics, it can change ?

No, no. Brahman cannot change. Please go through this thread again. All forms, names and the laws of relationship between them is due to MAyA and is MAyA. In Bhagwad Gita Chapter 7, Lord Krishna explains various elements of MAyA/Prakriti : "Earth, water, fire, space and air with Manas (observer mind), Buddhi (intellect) and (Ahamkaar) is my eight-fold Prakriti. The substratum of it is my Supreme aspect." So, whatever changes occur, occur only due to MAyA. In Chapter 13, Kshetra has been explained by Lord Krishna which covers even more elements of MAyA. Then He has explianed the action of three Gunas which are also elements of MAyA.

The role of Brahman is that it is the locus of MAyA and It alone lends relative reality, intelligence and consistency to all projections borne out of MAyA by a phenomenon called ChidAbhAsa (reflecting Its "light" through MAyic objects).

OM

[devotee]

Namaste Yajvan,

cidghano'pi jaganmūrtyā śyāno yaḥ sa jayatyajaḥ|
svātmapracchādanakrīḍāvidagdhaḥ parameśvaraḥ |1|

this says,

Glory to the Supreme (parama-īśvaraḥ) the unborn one who is skillful in the art of playing to conceal His own Self (sva-ātma) who , though being a compact mass (ghana) of consciousness (cit), is coagulated (śyānaḥ) in the form (mūrtyā) of the world or universe (jagat) ||

I don't see much difference between what is offered by Advaita VedAnta and Kashmir Shaivism except the choice of words and choice of way to explain the things. When I say that the creation is due to MAyA and that is again born out of Brahman and Brahman alone exists ... is as good as saying that it is basically nothing but expansion of Brahman.

OM