Equality

[Equinox]

Vannakkam everyone.


To keep it simple and short, what is your view on equality?

This has been bugging me for some years now. Like since my mid-teens. I realise that the world will be a different place to live in when everybody is equal or treated equally. Do you think it would be good or bad if everyone aspired for the same? For example, wealth and status. How will the world be then? It seems to be a scary place full of competition and over expectations and unnecessary desires.

And what about arrogance and ego? What if everybody wants a piece of that too?

It will be a great place to live in ONLY if everyone aspires to a religious and peaceful life, without much material need and detachment from ego.

That's my opinion.


In today's world, everybody more or less knows their place in society, determined by hereditary wealth and status as well as attitude and ego. They also know how to behave accordingly. But what happens when everybody becomes the same? I imagine chaos. Considering that the vast majority of the world's population today are either poor or average, these people will no doubt go to lengths to display an egoistic arrogance after generations of poverty once everybody is equal. So what happens then?

Most countries are controlled by an elite society, be they the aristocracy, the intellectuals or even the Brahmins. But when everyone aspires to be in the elite, where is the world headed to? If everybody wants a piece of the cake, or think they deserve a piece of the cake, what do we get at all?

Now it's still balanced, but when everybody wants the same and does the same, it won't quite be a balanced world anymore. What happens then?

I know that we're all equal in the eyes of God. But among each other? It's good to respect and treat everyone equally, but what happens when everyone wants the same or think they deserve the same? And what if what they aspire to is self-centred and negative in nature, like wealth and arrogance.

Is that when Kalki steps in?

Is it even necessary? How would the future be then?



It's just a thought. Forgive me if I offended anyone. Would love to know your opinions on equality.



Aum Namah Shivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste!

Great topic.

I think equality has less to do with equal pay and more to do with equal respect. I also don't think there will ever be a time when absolutely everyone aspires for wealth and status. We will always need people to perform work at all levels of intellectual and manual ability and that is why everyone from the garbage truck driver to the CEO needs to be respected for the role they play. They cannot function without the other. People are paid differently for different roles based on how that particular society values that function and also the rarity of those skills (ideally). There are of course discrepancies in this ( The enormous gap between what a teacher makes verses a MLB player) I believe what needs evolving is society's respect for EVERY job. If we really thought about how much we need those we pay the least, I think the pay gap would narrow quite a bit. Not completely, since there are specialized jobs that not everyone is suited for ( surgeon, engineer, sculptor ), but the amount of people able to afford basic necessities for life would sky-rocket.

There are many people who are completely content with less and see no need to aspire for more than that. I believe that as long as basic needs are plentiful that quality of life would increase. Of course, many areas of society lack and are even actively denied basic needs like shelter, clean clothes, food etc.

This Darwinian attitude of "survival of the fittest" no longer serves us, and it's debatable as to whether it ever did. I think as a society we need to shift our focus to taking care of one another, "If he hurts, I must be injured". This is an enormous shift.

Just my opinion. I'd be interested in seeing other member's view on this.

Peace!

[philosoraptor]

Equality does not exist in this world and will never exist. A truly equal society could not exist unless force were used to constrain the natural strengths of some individuals and to distribute all wealth to those who don't have them. In other words, a truly equal society would be a classless society. Do classless societies exist? Officially they do - in Communist China and the former Soviet Union, but realists know that class distinctions remain even in these repressive nations.

What we have or do not have is based on our karma. Karma itself is not equal, and it is beginningless. Aspiring for "equality" is missing the point. We should be aspiring for liberation. The liberated state is the only state in which "equality" really exists.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

I am not going to comment on all aspects of “equality”, and there are lots of ideation around this in terms of political equality, social equality, racial equality, equality of mobility, equality of opportunity, and so on. Life is more than just human life, but the life of all nature, all animals, trees and so on, there are many cycles, life is impacted by many things some of which is unforeseen. For example, in my opinion the greatest circumstantial influence over the affairs of “humans” in “history” is not the accounts of “leaders” (Kings, pontiffs, republicans, activists and so on inclusive of saints) but is disease.

Disease alone, though largely undocumented or part of the historical perspective until very recent times, has impacted major historical cycles and events and battles and discovery than anything that a Caesar has done in battle. Men alone do not make history. And there is the Devas and Devi as well which impacts history. And also consider nature itself, which laid to waste the Grand Army of Napoleon in Russia, or the simple little louse which is a very tiny little body lice that has been a parasite for 70,000 years to humans and gave Napolean’s Grand Army typhus fever and trench fever. Napolean marched into Russia in the summer of 1812 with half a million soldiers. Only a few thousand returned. 29 percent of these men died due to this tiny little louse. In Europe, riding on the backs of the rat and mouse, came the Black Plague – in the form of bubonic or pneumonic plague. Bubonic is a word that comes from the old English word “bubos” which mean the swelled large walnut to apple size “bubos” or bumps filled and swarming with the virus in the lymph glands to the point where the bubos appear and even burst open. It would come in the summer, but worst still was the pneumonic form that would come in the winter, spread by the simplest of coughs one human to another as the plague hit the lungs and caused rapid death. 1/5th of the entire population of Europe died, and in many areas ½ or more of the entire population perished. Few know, India was also struck, so badly so it literally put their dynamic civilization “on hold”.

Life is much more complicated than most imagine. The answers are also, therefore, much more complicated. This comes with the question of equality as well.

I am a “modern Hindu”. What does that mean?

That means I am just like the typical Hindu as found in India today, or other parts of the world, much more grounded in the Hinduism of the 15th Century and beyond with the influences of Saints and the emergence of Gurus for large populations which eclipsed the institutions of Munis which in ancient times were much more grounded in “Vedic” Dharma than Hinduism. Modern Hindus often go through life cycles which actually involve life from day to day, the cycles of life such as birth, marriage, death. The Devas and Devi are very central to this life. These are of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and Devi. Much less so the Vedic Suras such as Agni or Indra of the days of the Munis. Modern Hindus live in Hinduism, it is an experience, not just “reading Vedas”. Today I know there are young Hindus who are very engaged with Vedas, like to read and quote like experts, spend a lot of time talking about the Supreme Brahman and very little time in the temples. I am not complaining about them. But that is not what I am.

I learned one thing from my life so far in the business, technological and engineering world of Corporate culture. I learned the very same thing from modern Hinduism, but in a more profound way. And that is, you cannot “get ahead” or benefit “yourself” by seeking to destroy, repress others as your focus in life. Doing this to others wastes a lot of your time, and in the complexity of life and all dependencies, you are not growing yourself or your cause or your goals or your aspirations by wasting time in this manner, in fact you will quickly discover the “domino effect” of how so many things in this very, very complex world are connected together, how one domino falling impacts another domino. Fools who engage in such behavior soon discover they did not benefit themselves or their community, but what goes around comes around and they only weakened and even destroyed themselves by only living in a vision of putting down others.

That is not the same philosophy as “equality”, but in one way it is. But my perspective is as being a Hindu. And what I want to see, what I have been taught is the way, and what I firmly believe will come to pass is this:

That Hindus have the destiny to be "Advisors to Men" (men in the generic sense).

If anyone has ever considered my opinions, for what they are worth and not very much (please, listen to your Guru, NOT ME, and think just how this Guru and saint principle is one of the shining stars of “modern Hinduism”) – I see and believe in the growth of Hinduism in the world.

But at the same, I also will say that while Hindus, the family of Hindus, the community of Hindus is growing, and growing – it will never be a majority in this world.

It will be a minority – not a small minority, a notable and exemplary minority of great numbers – but never the majority. Not in the Kali Yuga. But as with any business, any corporation, anything else including our modern world, those who are trying to balance everything for the best of the “business”, for the best of the “community”, they all quickly learn that to avoid disaster and failure, you must realize that in this complex world you cannot be an idiot and live or succeed by “repressing others”. You will gain nothing. It takes all your time. You will have no time to bring success, you will in the end live in fear yourself and destroy yourself. Those who succeed, they need advisors. Advisors to men. Every corporation, every religious or Dharmic vision knows this is true.

That is what Hindus must be, and will be. They will never be the majority. In that sense, they will be an “exclusive club”. But they have something that those, be it Kings, or Presidents, or Corporations, or Communities, or Society, or any social institution needs. It will be recognized if you are a true Hindu. They will be valued, they will be sought for, as Advisors. It won’t matter be it the richest Hindu or the poorest Hindu. All of you will be in this exclusive club. This is true, simply because not every man, not every woman, will be found by Hinduism, nor have any dharma or consideration for that. You will and must become the Advisors to Men. You will never be the majority in this complex world of confusion and mass illusion. And too many unforeseen things have, and will come. So you have a very important role. Among all Hindus, see each other as equals in this destiny. Foster each other. Be your own destiny. You are the Advisors to Men. Become that.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Equinox]

Thank you all for your opinions!


Jodhaa: Yes, I agree with all your points!

I think as a society we need to shift our focus to taking care of one another, "If he hurts, I must be injured".

Especially this one!



Philosoraptor:

In other words, a truly equal society would be a classless society. Do classless societies exist?

What if it eventually exists? Most countries in the world are working towards it. That's something we all know. Of course there will be leaders and followers, but it wouldn't be as class-divided as it is now.

Britain is the most stunning example. The aristocracy is almost dead and their dumb descendants are busy squandering away generations of accumulated wealth. The Queen "seems" overjoyed that her grandson married the granddaughter of tin-miners. Sooner or later the royal family would be questioned for their lack of royal blood and won't be needed anymore by the "common" people. Perhaps that is the very reason why she allowed the wedding in the first place, to appease the commoners?

Other countries with monarchies can witness the same thing happening to their royal and aristocratic families eventually. How many still survive today? And most are diluting themselves by marrying into the common masses anyway.

Most countries champion the concept of equality. So while there might never be a classless society, there will definitely be a time when much of the population is equal in terms of wealth and status, in the average bracket perhaps.

Anyway what I was asking about is how would the world be when this eventually happens.


ShivaFan:

Out of topic and not exactly what I was looking for, but an interesting opinion nevertheless.



Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shanti29]

"Britain is the most stunning example. The aristocracy is almost dead and their dumb descendants are busy squandering away generations of accumulated wealth. The Queen "seems" overjoyed that her grandson married the granddaughter of tin-miners. Sooner or later the royal family would be questioned for their lack of royal blood and won't be needed anymore by the "common" people. Perhaps that is the very reason why she allowed the wedding in the first place, to appease the commoners?

Other countries with monarchies can witness the same thing happening to their royal and aristocratic families eventually. How many still survive today? And most are diluting themselves by marrying into the common masses anyway."

I don't think Britain is the best example. The Duchess is hardly a commoner. http://www.helloonline.com/royalty/2...on-royal-link/
"The 25-year-old Berkshire lass, whose parents run a children's party supply business, is apparently descended from the 14th-century monarch King Edward III and his wife Queen Phillipa.

According to a genealogist working for the Daily Express, Kate's family tree can be traced back to Henry Percy, the third Earl of Northumberland. This, says the paper, means Kate and her sister Pippa can "claim blood ties with every crowned head of Europe and the majority of the British peerage". "
The commoner business was simply to give her some likability. A well calculated move. The royal family hasn't been this popular since Princess Diana who everyone considered the people's princess even though she was a well bred royal. What better way to win back the public than have one of the people's own.
Even Fergie, who is supposedly a common, her girls look like carbon copies of long dead royals but in this case in might just be the result of centuries of inbreeding. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...st-titles.html

I think the London riots show that there is indeed still a class division. The old troll might be trying to appease the commoners but not in the way we think. There have been a slew movies on the royal recently probably to gain the public's sympathy. The King's Speech, The Queen, ect, Oscar quality movies. I'm getting a little repetitive now, I need to sign off.

[ShriBala]

Namaskar Equinox. If i take the context of India, equality would mean respect of/ and for women/girls. Not mere lip service. Nor glorification during the navaratri and then turning around and getting to treat them like 2nd class citizens. This will also mean that we get to *really*understand what Ardhanaarishvara means.

How about equality in getting the basic needs met? Atleast for kids. Every kid must go to school, must get to eat simple, yet nutritious food and go to sleep happily. Achievable? Utopian? Hope not!

Equality amongst different castes etc? Sigh! Looks like a pipedream unless human consciousness undergoes a 180 degree change. Time for an avatar to make His/Her presence felt?

[Equinox]

Shanti??

What did you just say?

Britain IS the best example because you're not even aware of the entire situation. Heck you just read stuff on the surface.

is apparently descended from the 14th-century monarch King Edward III and his wife Queen Phillipa.

According to a genealogist working for the Daily Express, Kate's family tree can be traced back to Henry Percy, the third Earl of Northumberland. This, says the paper, means Kate and her sister Pippa can "claim blood ties with every crowned head of Europe and the majority of the British peerage". "

Are you aware that 80% to 90% of all English people alive today are descended from Edward III? Not to mention those who migrated to US and Canada. He is regarded as the Father of the Nation. Kate being descended from him makes no difference at all!

Compared to ALL previous consorts of heirs to the throne, Kate is the most distantly related in 1000+ years (excluding Anne Hyde, wife of James II, and Wallis Simpson, wife of Edward VIII). But even those 2 were from prominent and well-to-do families, and well bred. Anne Hyde was the daughter of an earl. Kate's only royal lineage is from Edward III. She was never from an aristocratic family nor had any titled relatives. She is the most common you can get among the spouses of the royal family. A TRUE commoner.

Lady Diana, the daughter of an earl and maternal granddaughter of a baron, was descended from Charles II of England as well as Henry IV of France, not to mention a huge collection of other titled ancestors from all over Europe.

Charles II ruled only 300+ years ago, compared to Edward III, who ruled 600+ years ago.

Fergie IS also descended from Charles II of England, through her mother and she is also a distant cousin of Diana, and a grandaunt of hers was an aunt of the Queen, Princess Alice of Gloucester. Fergie's dad was from the landed gentry. So is Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall. Both of the Princess Royal's husbands were from the landed gentry, as well as the husband of the late Princess Margaret. The Countess of Wessex, Sophie, is not only descended from Edward III, but also from Henry II of France and a Welsh prince. Her family is of the landed gentry too. The Duchess of Kent is from the minor aristocracy, while the Duchess of Gloucester is the daughter of a lawyer. Not to mention Princess Michael of Kent, a baroness in her own right and descended form various French and German aristocracy and royalty.

The last true princess to become queen consort was Princess Mary of Teck, the grandmother of the Queen. The late Queen Mother(mother of the Queen) was only from the aristocracy and the daughter of an earl, like Diana. She was also descended from Henry VII of England. Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, consort of the Queen, is a prince of Denmark and Greece in his own right. All queens consort before the Queen Mother were either German, Danish, Scottish, French or Portuguese princesses.

After Queen Mary and Prince Philip, you can see a decline in the class system, with the late Queen Mother, of the aristocracy, smacked in between them. All the 4 children of the Queen opted to marry aristocracy(Diana) or landed gentry(Fergie, Sophie, Camilla, Mark, Timothy).

The Queen's grandson, the Duke of Cambridge, takes the cake. He ended it all, LOL. He would eventually marry the great-granddaughter of labourers, Kate. No royal spouse in a 1000+ years has ever been lower than her in status. Self-made dad and stewardess mom, herself the daughter of tin miners and labourers. So thats a bit on Kate's position, when you compare her to all other royal spouses.

The same can be said if you compared her to spouses of royal princes of other countries. Most present-day royal heirs married women who's families have been middle-class for many, many generations. If you compared Kate's background to theirs, you'd get what I mean.

One can imagine the royal family being composed entirely of commoners in the next 2 to 3 generations. What happens then? The other commoners might not want them anymore. They are already refusing to accept their importance.

So yea everyone is becoming equal or expect to be treated as an equal. In the near future you can imagine how it would be.

The London Riots was a good example, yes.



Aum Namah Shivaya

[Equinox]

Vannakkam ShriBala

Gender equality as well as sufficient basic needs for all children can definitely be achieved very soon. It is already happening pace by pace. I have very high hopes for India. Always had. When I was around 11 and began studying sociology and history as a hobby, I realised that India was one of the few countries with the potential to shine the most, if only her naive people and ridiculous politicians channelled their brains and ambition towards achieving the proper things. It will happen sooner or later, no matter how slow. But I hope within my lifetime.

Time for an avatar to make His/Her presence felt?

As I mentioned earlier, could this be Kalki?



Aum Namah Shivaya

[philosoraptor]

What if it eventually exists? Most countries in the world are working towards it. That's something we all know. Of course there will be leaders and followers, but it wouldn't be as class-divided as it is now.

Well, good luck with that. But difference in wealth, intelligence, strength, and other abilities naturally lead to class differences. For a vision of "equality," check out Kurt Vonnegut's shot story "Harrison Bergeron."

America has no monarchy, but class differences in the America are obvious and part of everyday life.