Jnana Yoga for beginners?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

Also, I forgot to ask: What do I envision in my mind when I chant a mantra? For example if I am chanting Om Namah Shivaya, do I envision ॐ नमः शिवाय in my mind, or what?

the more you engage the mind the more you stay on the surface of the mind. Like swimming on the surface of the ocean. You are tossed here and there by the waves. The silence of the ocean is found in its depths, not on the surface. Same with the mind... the goal is not on the surface but at its depths - that is where pure awareness can be found.



iti śivaṁ

[Amrut]

Originally Posted by Yogic_lighter
Namaste Yajvan-ji,
I have a question regarding the pre-requisite of: discriminating between what is eternal/unchanging and what is transient/changing:
How does one discriminate between the two? I know that I am neither the body, nor the mind, neither any of the koshas, etc... But how could a beginner spiritual seeker see the real/eternal Atman?

Originally Posted by Yogic_lighter
Also, I forgot to ask: What do I envision in my mind when I chant a mantra? For example if I am chanting Om Namah Shivaya, do I envision ॐ नमः शिवाय in my mind, or what?

While this excellent question is asked to Yajvan ji, I would like to share my thoughts. These type of questions are bound to rise when one tries to apply advaita principles in day-2-day life.

In addition to Yajvan ji's excellent answers and explanation, I would like to add that, the confidence in saying that I am not body and mind will be rock solid without any doubt only when God makes you experience detachment.

When you are detached from your body, you can clearly see your body, just like you see other bodies of say your friend. It's as if there is a camera on the back side of body, above your head at maybe 1-2 feet. So you are seeing your body. If I am that body, then who is the one seeing it? than something strikes. Oh I am not a body

Similarly when you are detached from thoughts, you can see them. You can feel that you are separate from thoughts. Mind is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts says Sri Ramana Maharshi. So when you are separate from thoughts, you are separate from mind.

Regarding chanting, You do not need to visualize the Mantra written and floating in mind. Just chant without visualizing it. If you cannot chant without visualizing, then you can visualize the deity. Do not worry just go on chanting mantra and leave rest to God. wrong approach will be corrected by God, the only thing to do is to pray with sincere heart to guide your meditation / mantra / japa.

Doubts are only up-rooted upon experience. till then you will have to be contended with logical interpretation and have faith in saying. I fully trust shastras and their authenticity. the reward for such a faith is direct experience.

Aum

[Arjunesh]

I meditate on OM, but I have been told that OM is not for worldly minded people, since OM up-roots all desires, be it good or bad.


Pls can you tell me how to do meditate on om?
Do you recite it during meditation? Or just kepping in mind or do you visualize it?
Or whatever?
I would like to practice it when I sit in meditation too.
Thanks in advance
Arjunesh

[Yogic_lighter]

Namaste Yajvan-ji, Namaste Indiaspirituality,

Thanks for your answers.
That I am not the body is obvious even when interacting with the outside world. Mind however is different. It is very difficult to see the mind as a separate entity when interacting with the world. However in meditation, you are not disturbed by the external world, and you can see the mind as a separate entity, in constant action, constant flow of thoughts, etc..
So when chanting I should just see "the blank"? And when an image, a thought, comes, I just ignore it, and try to get back to that "blank"?

[Amrut]

Namaste Yajvan-ji, Namaste Indiaspirituality,

Thanks for your answers.
That I am not the body is obvious even when interacting with the outside world. Mind however is different. It is very difficult to see the mind as a separate entity when interacting with the world. However in meditation, you are not disturbed by the external world, and you can see the mind as a separate entity, in constant action, constant flow of thoughts, etc..
So when chanting I should just see "the blank"? And when an image, a thought, comes, I just ignore it, and try to get back to that "blank"?

Namaste Yogic_lighter

When there is nothing there is blank. Since this is the beginning, I would say yes, you can come back to Blank. Better would be to listen or again start to chant OM. Blank is the feeling, but not to be concentrated upon, but still initially you can come back yo Blank state. It is actually awareness. You are present there.

When any doubt about meditation arises, immediately pray to God to show the correct way, surrender and stay calm. This is the best approach. Please note that you do not need to break meditation to ask question. Ask question when meditation breaks or you are unsure and in a fix and don't know what to do. Prayers are very powerful. They clean thoughts and calm our mind.

All the feeling will happen in day time, but at a very later stage. Initially you only experience it in deep meditation for a very short period of time. The thing is to get started and start walking and one day you will reach destination.

Aum

[Amrut]

I meditate on OM, but I have been told that OM is not for worldly minded people, since OM up-roots all desires, be it good or bad.


Pls can you tell me how to do meditate on om?
Do you recite it during meditation? Or just kepping in mind or do you visualize it?
Or whatever?
I would like to practice it when I sit in meditation too.
Thanks in advance
Arjunesh

It is a simple chanting like any other mantra. I do not visualize anything. OM does not have a shape. The symbol is not the shape like that of deity. There is no deity named OM and you wont find any temple dedicated to Deity OM.

Initially I started to chant verbally but softly. Then it is mental chanting. Later on OM continues by itself. Rest just happens.It is difficult to explain.

OM itself is meditation and not a part of meditation or any kind of process.

I would caution you DO NOT BEGIN TO CHANT OM just by yourself, specially when you are not ready to live like a monk. IT WILL BACK FIRE. I would not recommend it to anyone.

Aum

[smaranam]

Namaste Yogic Lighter

It is wonderful that you see yourself as a disciple of SanAtan Dharma and are inquiring. Before we begin, this very dharma (the scriptures) teach Guru-vandan - worship, reverence and fondness-adoration for the Guru. Since you don't have one and have picked up the Bhagavad Gita, Shri KRshNa, paramAtmA Himself is fortunately your Guru through the Gita for now.
(He is Adi Guru, hence everyone's Guru)

Also, the pre-requisite for studying Gita is to have at least a priliminary "bhakti bhaav" (devotion) for Shri KRshNa the paramAtmA, since He wishes to share this knowledge with His devotees, who understand Him as He is, and not dismiss Him as an ordinary human.

This way a reltionship will be established between you and Shri KRshNa, the Supreme Lord.

So both ways, a beginner's reverence for the Speaker of the Gita is wise.


Now about the AtmA:
KRshNa says in the Gita:

UpadRshtAnumanta ... The AtmA is an UpadRshtA / dRshtA / sAkshi i.e. Observer, Witness (as already discussed on this thread)

He is anumantA because He facilitates all existence, gives the final permission, signoff (anumAn) for the Body-Mind-Intellect-Ego complex to breathe, think, walk, talk, run skip hop jump argue meditate eat digest sense smell take [false] credit (I acheived this/ I did this) etc.

It is the pure consciousness.

This is what a teacher once said:
Observe your various bodily systems first - respiratory, circulatory, nervous (cause effect) etc.

Once one gets into this habit, it is very easy to identify onself as this observer/witness and "see" the systems in action.

Same with the mind. Observer the mind.

What I find is that the mind makes big statements and suddenly notices that someone is observing her activity. Suddenly she (the mind) gets embarrassed when she notices I am watching her, and "bows her head". The mind is quiet now. Off she will go again.

Now who was it that just spoke this above in blue? It wasn't me at all! It was the intellect-mind (manobuddhi) speaking like Mr. Knowall. Giving you the false impression that it is indeed me. But I am the quiet witness of it all.

Oh ! Then you cannot be it - the moment you say "I am the witness" this is ahaMkaar - ego speaking.

I do not speak. I do not act. I do not think. I am. And it is spendid, so quiet, peaceful. However, I can regulate the mind and intellect in this body. Hold the reigns like HRushikesha and not let the horses take over the chariot.

By the Lord's grace, the mind will be quiet one day. So quiet it will not want to "lift a finger". Only by His grace (kRpA). The pure consciousness, the AtmA will shine through.

In the meanwhile, one way to make the mind holy if not completely quiet is to engage her in bhakti.

*Hari naam - chant Hari's numerous beautiful names. (Hari is KRshNa)
*Hari Kirtan - sing His glories.
*Hari dAsya - serve Him in many ways. Start small by serving your family members with love.
*Hari KathA - study the Gita but also Shrimad BhAgvat MahApurAN.

Far better that worldly mundane nonsensical thoughts.

Devotees get so so engrossed in the nectarean ocean of Lord's glories that they ask for nothing else. HE becomes their caretaker, friend, companion, witness, Guru, maintainer and everything (sarvasva). He keeps His promise.



_/\_ namah: kamalanAbhAya namaste jalshAyine
namaste keshavAnata vAsudeva namostute

Obeissances to the One with a Lotus navel (from which BrahmA was born and created the Universe)
To the One resting in the waters of transcendence

vAsanAd vAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvanatrayam
sarva bhUta nivAsosi vAsudeva namostute

It is VAsudev (KRshNa) Who lives in all beings and in all the three manifested worlds. Obeissances to Him.

Om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[Yogic_lighter]

Namaste Yogic_lighter

When there is nothing there is blank. Since this is the beginning, I would say yes, you can come back to Blank. Better would be to listen or again start to chant OM. Blank is the feeling, but not to be concentrated upon, but still initially you can come back yo Blank state. It is actually awareness. You are present there.

When any doubt about meditation arises, immediately pray to God to show the correct way, surrender and stay calm. This is the best approach. Please note that you do not need to break meditation to ask question. Ask question when meditation breaks or you are unsure and in a fix and don't know what to do. Prayers are very powerful. They clean thoughts and calm our mind.

All the feeling will happen in day time, but at a very later stage. Initially you only experience it in deep meditation for a very short period of time. The thing is to get started and start walking and one day you will reach destination.

Aum

Namaste Indiaspirituality,

I would like to ask what do you mean by "Om will backfire"? I chant it without really thinking about it. I just chant and focus on the "black" or the Sanskrit symbol Om.
Should I just first stick with Om Namah Shivaaya?

Namaste Yogic Lighter

It is wonderful that you see yourself as a disciple of SanAtan Dharma and are inquiring. Before we begin, this very dharma (the scriptures) teach Guru-vandan - worship, reverence and fondness-adoration for the Guru. Since you don't have one and have picked up the Bhagavad Gita, Shri KRshNa, paramAtmA Himself is fortunately your Guru through the Gita for now.
(He is Adi Guru, hence everyone's Guru)

Also, the pre-requisite for studying Gita is to have at least a priliminary "bhakti bhaav" (devotion) for Shri KRshNa the paramAtmA, since He wishes to share this knowledge with His devotees, who understand Him as He is, and not dismiss Him as an ordinary human.

Namaste Smaranam,

I've read some commentaries from the Vaishnava point of view on Bhagavad Gita. Of course I respect Lord Krishna, and try to abide by his sacred words by abiding by dharma.

It is the pure consciousness.

This is what a teacher once said:
Observe your various bodily systems first - respiratory, circulatory, nervous (cause effect) etc.

Once one gets into this habit, it is very easy to identify onself as this observer/witness and "see" the systems in action.

Same with the mind. Observer the mind.

What I find is that the mind makes big statements and suddenly notices that someone is observing her activity. Suddenly she (the mind) gets embarrassed when she notices I am watching her, and "bows her head". The mind is quiet now. Off she will go again.

Now who was it that just spoke this above in blue? It wasn't me at all! It was the intellect-mind (manobuddhi) speaking like Mr. Knowall. Giving you the false impression that it is indeed me. But I am the quiet witness of it all.

Oh ! Then you cannot be it - the moment you say "I am the witness" this is ahaMkaar - ego speaking.

I do not speak. I do not act. I do not think. I am. And it is spendid, so quiet, peaceful. However, I can regulate the mind and intellect in this body. Hold the reigns like HRushikesha and not let the horses take over the chariot.

That is a wonderful example! It really makes it easier to grasp the concept, and gradually dismisses the notions I am the mind, intellect, etc.
I remember reading about the chariot analogy. The horses are the sense organs, the charioteer is the intellect, the reins with which the charioteer controls the horses is the mind. And atman is seated in the chariot and is unchanging witness of all the process.
Controlling the horses=controlling the senses.
I like to believe that both Bhakti and Jnana lead to the same result as Shri Ramakrishna believed. Jnanis are united with God by removal of ignorance, while bhakti-yogis are united with God through their union of love with God. Both ends are the same.

[Amrut]

Namaste Indiaspirituality,

I know that when you refer to God you are referring to Brahman. And to me, it doesn't really matter what you call him. What I meant is that Brahman is saguna and nirguna. dual and non dual.
Thanks again for everything, and for helping me in my spiritual path. I also read some of your thoughts, in the website you gave me. They were great. And btw, the most awesome thing I find is how Sri Ramakrishna finds all the paths leading to the same result.
Also, I've read somewhere that bhakti leads to non-duality, by the union of love between God and the God-lover. Is that true?

Namaste YL

Sorry your post did not show up, so the last answer I gave was from your quotes copied by Yajvan ji. Maybe still your posted are moderated.

EDIT: Just chant OM. Try to stay focused on OM. Also be aware of the gap between 2 OMs. You will feel blank state. this is normal. Even I feel it. You should be constantly be aware of the mantra OM, gap and then another OM. Yes you can come back to blank state and again start chanting OM. TRy it for 45 minutes. Can you do it? if not then go for Om Namah Shivaya.

Sri Ramakrishna has highly influenced my life and I have read his biography for 8 years till I got orders to stop reading it. I have read less and not even all verses of Gita, but selected verses given in a discourse. But I use to repeat them many times.

Yes, God is both dual and non-dual i.e. without and without attributes. How do you perceive depends upon path. It is like fire and it’s heat. Fire cannot be separated from it’s heat. Fire is Brahman and heat is it’s shakti (maya). Be it any path, finally one experiences both aspects of God. – formless and with form. or Brahman and Maya or shakti.

Yes, Bhakti also leads to non-dual state. Actually, there is no moksha without jnana (knowledge). While advaita vedantin has moksha as the final and only goal since beginning, bhakta may not have that this goal from the beginning.

Bhakta only wants to be at lotus feet of his beloved deity and does not want moksha, but just wants to stay with his God. This is dual state as there is a bhakta and God i.e. worshipper and object / deity of worship. When bhakti reaches it’s pinnacle, then a bhakta looses his/her identity and merges inside / into God. Bhakta looses it’s own consciousness and there is just God. This happens as bhakta just wants to surrender to God and stay with him. When there is total surrender and not stays in the surrendered state to a personal deity say Ram or Krushna, there is no thought left and so bhakta also lives on intuitions or orders given by God.

EDIT: after one is mature in spirituality, one lives on Intuitions and not on thoughts. Thoughts decreases as one progresses in spirituality. Be it any path. In all paths one has to surrender. As surrender increases and thoughts decreases, dream state and so duration of sleep reduces from 6-7 hours to 4-5 hours to 3 hours to 2 hours and even less.

After total surrender, it is the responsibility of God to give his devotee what is best for him. So even if devotee does not ask for moksha, God gives him, either directly or through some Guru. It happened in the case of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Naramsinh Mehta. So a devotee finally does get Jnana, even if following pure bhakti like that of Lord Hanuman. I have heard that even if, by chance a bhakta does not get moksha, still he does not take birth on earth but takes birth in brahma loka, where he is initiated by Lord Brahma and gets moksha.

If bhakti and Jnana is mixed, then as one matures, instead of just pure devotion, symbolic aspect of the deity are explained and the deity is finally connected with formless aspect of God i.e. Nirguna Brahman. In such case, Bhakta realizes that it is actually Jnana that has to be practiced and this realization is a fruit of his bhakti to his personal deity. This happened to a devotee of Lord Ganesh who met Sri Ramana Maharshi. Sri Ramana Maharshi practiced Jnana Marg. So devotee was confused. But later he realized that his meeting and the attraction to Sri Ramana Maharshi is as a result of Fruit of his bhakti to Lord Ganesh. Finally he shifted to Jnana Marga.

Namaste Indiaspirituality,

I would like to ask what do you mean by "Om will backfire"? I chant it without really thinking about it. I just chant and focus on the "black" or the Sanskrit symbol Om.
Should I just first stick with Om Namah Shivaaya?

OM backfires in the sense that if you are not ready to renounce desires and moksha is the only Goal, then life will become miserable. Unlike deity, you cannot ask to OM to fulfill desire. OM uproots all desires and karmas, be it good or bad. Even divine karma like serving saints or visiting places of pilgrim is also up-rooted. OM is the only mantra or tatva which can put you directly in Samadhi that too effortlessly. OM is beyond 3 gunas and Maya.

So unless you want to dedicate your entire life to fulfill your goal i.e. moksha, you should not chant OM. You should have a strong mind. I have limited study of scriptures and so cannot point out any verses saying this, but from personal experience I can say this. Even one saint has said the same thing.

The thing is that in OM meditation, every thought is neutralized. As one progresses, at very later stages, even thinking of body fades away. You simply do not think anything but just live detached life with humility as Ego is surrendered to Atman. Constant bliss and deep peace flow through you daily. I can feel it even when typing this reply. I am not trying to claim anything. I am not realized but a sadhaka just like you. I am just an ordinary person living a spiritual life. Since last 13 years, I have quits most things. I only take medicine when I get order to take it. I do get intuitions and they are never wrong. I can very well recognize difference between intuition and thoughts created by mind. It’s a God’s gift. So please do not ask how do I know that it’s an intuition and not just another thought. So if you do not want to renounce some desires i.e. want to fulfill desires, then you will not let them go in meditation and the fight begins. Since you are not letting go, OM will fade away and meditation will break. From personal experience I will say that life will be a mess and you are in 2 minds. During meditation OM tries to uproot the desire and after meditation, you try to fulfill it. So there will be a fight. Also when you do not let go, meditation breaks and so you won’t feel peaceful after meditation but are more agitated or even frustrated and will shamelessly vent out anger to anyone. You can come out tired instead of being refreshed after meditation. So I say life will be a mess and hence I repeatedly caution you and other members. I am not trying to discourage you or other members. If you feel to go for it, after reading all my posts, then go for it. I have passed through this phase When ever I give importance to any thought or desire or any issue, it troubles me in meditation. I do not say that there should be no desires. All I want to say is that you should be ready to renounce desires. And reduce them one by one as time passes. I am talking about this readiness which most people lack.

Should I just first stick with Om Namah Shivaaya?

Did you try to chant OM for 45 minutes?

I think in the beginning, you should go with breath awareness and also chant OM Namah Shivaya. Breath awareness will help you to begin the meditation. End meditation or Japa with Om Namah Shivaya.

Later on, you can shift to advaita. Do not worry, in the end you will reach same destination. Shastras say that you should select anything which suits you and not which you like. It’s called shrayas and preyas. Shrayes means best (that suits you) and preyas means the one which you like. Many people including my father are influenced by Jnana marg and Sri Ramana Maharshi’s philosophy, as they read intellectually. My father cannot sit idle, but keeps saying that he likes Advaita. After many years or maybe decades, he still cannot meditate for 45 minutes. Just sitting does not help, thoughts keep coming and SELF Enquiry is side tracked. So even though you are sitting to meditate, you are not meditating.

Also remember it’s not like planting one plant, then uprooting it and then again planting another and then again up-rooting. It is a phase of life. The path depends upon your mental state, purity of mind and circumstances. I am not saying to worship 3-4 gods or keep changing from Shiva to Krushna to Ram and so on.

You can keep reading Gita daily. This will help a lot. Better option is to listen to Gita discourse then reading. Still better is to see video. Swami Chinmaya’s commentary on Gita is a good one. Also the book by same author is helpful as generally books are generally conversion of speeches into texts by Swami or disciples and devotees. So you will find same thing in book that you listen.


Some references:
Symbolic meaning of Rama
What is the meaning of the realization of God?
Sri Ramakrishna on Importance of Renunciation in order to achieve liberation
Sri Ramakrishna on Importance of Renunciation condt.
Sri Ramakrishna on Jnana and Bhakti

[Yogic_lighter]

Did you try to chant OM for 45 minutes?

Namaste Indiaspirituality,
Yes I tried. Although not for 45 min. I meditated for 30 min. Also, another problem is that the sound of Om in my mind is very low. Like sometimes I can hear the outside objects making sound/noise and not hear the Om in my mind. This really shifts my attention. Then I started to chant it verbally, and softly, it worked better.
Also there is another thing that I want to clear out. You always say that Om up-roots all desires and karmas. And all the Hindu scriptures give it much importance, they say it's the primordial vibration, it is Brahman, it is All, it is beyond the three modes of nature, etc.. Including Mandukya Upanishads, which give an entire explanation about every detail of it, but when I meditate I really find no meaning in it. Is this normal or what? Should I, like, always be aware of the meaning of Om when meditating? I just chant Om, and feel like it's like any other word I would chant. Is this wrong?
Also, if I have an intense desire for something, should I start chanting Om to renounce it? Because to me (as a beginner), I don't feel like it can do anything to me, or have any effect on me. Is this wrong? Or is this because I'm merely a beginner?

Shastras say that you should select anything which suits you and not which you like. It�s called shrayas and preyas. Shrayes means best (that suits you) and preyas means the one which you like.

But how to know which would suit me?

You can keep reading Gita daily. This will help a lot. Better option is to listen to Gita discourse then reading. Still better is to see video. Swami Chinmaya�s commentary on Gita is a good one. Also the book by same author is helpful as generally books are generally conversion of speeches into texts by Swami or disciples and devotees. So you will find same thing in book that you listen.

Okay, thanks for the advise. Also, should I re-real all the Gita every day? Or just the verses I find most important?
Another thing is that should I re-read the Bhagavad Gita from Vaishnava point of view? Or just from Advaita perspective like Swami Chinmayananda's commentary? Since I don't think Advaita sees all the Bhagavad Gita as canon.

EDIT: Just chant OM. Try to stay focused on OM. Also be aware of the gap between 2 OMs. You will feel blank state. this is normal. Even I feel it. You should be constantly be aware of the mantra OM, gap and then another OM. Yes you can come back to blank state and again start chanting OM. TRy it for 45 minutes. Can you do it? if not then go for Om Namah Shivaya.

I think in the beginning, you should go with breath awareness and also chant OM Namah Shivaya. Breath awareness will help you to begin the meditation. End meditation or Japa with Om Namah Shivaya.

I actually tried breathe awareness. And I found it really simple. I watched a video about a Zen teacher that says to count to 10 (exhales and inhales) and go back. But I get what the general idea is about meditation. It's trying to get the mind to concentrate on one thing instead of being in constant thinking and jumping between a thought and another.
I'm sorry about always repeating the same question, on where to start, but I think I made a choice. I will go firstly with Om Namah Shivaya and breathe awareness, and then after a month or so, of beginner meditation I will start chanting Om. I just want to ensure a good and safe spiritual journey.
Also, another question for future meditation: How to meditate upon the formless aspect of Shiva? And how does it differ from meditating upon his form-aspect?