The Wife is the Guru and the Deity of the Husband

[Believer]

Namaste,

For people who bring in this Kali yuga thing into every conversation, I have one thing to say:

You live in the Kali yuga, either put up with it or jump off a cliff and that will put you out of your misery.

For people who want to complain about the politicians and certain Hindu writers/thinkers and wish them to be harmed, I would say, go ahead and do it. Complaining about them on a daily basis in the forum would not produce any results. You have to get off your chair and do whatever you want done to them, yourself. Don't depend on me or others in the forum to do your dirty work.

Whereas I appreciate/admire and worship people who support the Hindu causes, the esoteric debates termed as intellectual/philosophical/honest when one person says something and total BS when another expresses his viewpoint, become a drag after a while. We have to get on with the times and not be stuck in the mud, as far as trivial things go. The core of our scriptures that deals with attaining the divine is pristine and dear to me, you can have the rest and claim yourself to be superior than me.

This whole man to woman equation is very complex. If anyone wants to discuss it, I will be more than happy to talk about it in a separate thread. But it has to have a mix of scriptures and common sense. I did not retain my 20/20 vision, only to be led by the blind.

Pranam.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste,

Would it not be more productive for members to get married and live the life of a married man/woman for at least 20 years and then come back to tell us what works and what does not.

Vannakkam: Nope. I'm as clueless as ever, after 37 years. I still can't figure out what she wants, and I'm certainly not worthy of worship, as the thread title is meant to imply. Maybe you, with your many years of wedded bliss, could shed some insight onto it.

Aum Namasivaya

[Believer]

Namaste,

Maybe you, with your many tears of wedded bliss, could shed some insight onto it.

Is that a Freudian slip?
There sure are lot of tears in all blissful wedded lives.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,

For people who bring in this Kali yuga thing into every conversation, I have one thing to say:

You live in the Kali yuga, either put up with it or jump off a cliff and that will put you out of your misery.

For people who want to complain about the politicians and certain Hindu writers/thinkers and wish them to be harmed, I would say, go ahead and do it. Complaining about them on a daily basis in the forum would not produce any results. You have to get off your chair and do whatever you want done to them, yourself. Don't depend on me or others in the forum to do your dirty work.

Whereas I appreciate/admire and worship people who support the Hindu causes, the esoteric debates termed as intellectual/philosophical/honest when one person says something and total BS when another expresses his viewpoint, become a drag after a while. We have to get on with the times and not be stuck in the mud, as far as trivial things go. The core of our scriptures that deals with attaining the divine is pristine and dear to me, you can have the rest and claim yourself to be superior than me.

It sounds to me that what you are basically saying is this:

If I give an explanation on this moderated forum of a subject that is based on evidence, I should be prepared to put up with a troll who accuses me of saying things I never said, diverts the subject into things quite tangential to the original subject, and accuses me of impure motives (like wanting to oppress certain groups). Because this constitutes their "viewpoint."

Strangely enough, from where I come from, this sort of behavior isn't a "viewpoint." It's just plain rude.

Also, don't talk about Hindu scriptures, because that is esoteric and people don't like that on these Hindu forums. But if you do talk about something with scriptural basis, understand and accept that the viewpoints of someone who wants nothing to do with your scriptures have equal value, even if their viewpoint amounts to saying that you are an evil person who wants to oppress other people.

Where I come from, we just hit the "back" button on our browser if we see someone talking about something we don't like.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste,

Is that a Freudian slip?
There sure are lot of tears in all blissful wedded lives.

Pranam.

Vannakkam: I fixed it. But yes there are a lot of tears too.

Aum Namasivaya

[Ramakrishna]

Sita Ram,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The greatest threats to Hinduism aren't coming from Islamic terrorists, Christian missionaries, or even Maoist rebels and their brainwashed lackeys in tenured university positions. The greatest threat is from within - from Hindus who have learned to hate their own scriptures, who cannot even tolerate any discussion about those scriptures, and who do not respect civilized standards of intelligent debate, which are based on standards of intellectual honesty. These are the people who want to decide what Hinduism is, based not on any standard of evidence, but on their loud-mouthed ability to shout anyone down with whom they disagree.

I also believe that the greatest threat to Hinduism is from within. It's from a combination of radically universalist "Neo-Hindus" as well as those who masquerade under the guise of "Traditional Hinduism" and do nothing but zealously push their own sectarian interpretations of Hindu scriptures and denigrate Hindu Gods who they don't view as "supreme". They put themselves on a moralistic high ground, when in reality they are nothing more than the embodiments of hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Jai Sri Ram

[Believer]

Namaste Phil,

........I should be prepared to put up with a troll who accuses me of .......

I am sorry if you got the impression that everything was directed at you. I did not read all the exchanges, but I did not see a troll. If you were referring to 'eriko', she has been around for quite some time and is as concerned about the harm being caused to Hindus and the Hindu cause in Bharat as anyone else. If we put ten Hindus in a room, we are bound to have 10 different perspectives on any given issue. That is the nature of our path - different interpretations by different acharyas, gurus, saints and even the laymen. So, a person should say his bit and then stop, because we can't change anybody's 'made up' mind. We should 'Let it go'. All the back and forth stinks up the forum which is for everyone's enjoyment. "back" button or no "back" button, we should not have to witness all the acrimony. Let us hit the 'reset' button and be the friends that we have been for a long time and move on with our lives. I don't have any ill will against you or anyone else in the forum, just impatience with the 'never to be settled' discussions.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Yes, I agree that if we put 10 different Hindus in the room, we are likely to get 10 different perspectives. However, this problem would be minimized if all 10 Hindus observed the following, simple, and easy-to-follow points of etiquette and intellectual honesty:

1) When the subject of the original posting is A, don't divert the thread by insisting to talk about B

2) Don't criticize people for saying things that they did not say. Some examples include, but are not limited to:
2a) Equating discussions of hierarchy of deities with "denigrating" other deities
2b) Equating belief in correct understanding of dharma with "not allowing" other people to follow their own ideas
2c) Equating statements of fact about Hindu scriptural regulations regarding social relations with "oppression" or "discrimination" against some social groups.

3) Don't insist that other people should "dumb down" their presentation to satisfy your lack of knowledge on the subject. This will never lead to improvement in the standard of discussion. Instead, if you feel insecure about your lack of knowledge on a given subject, then devote some time to reading. Do your own homework and educate yourself.

4) Be consistent. For example, don't profess a belief in "everyone's opinion has equal value," and then knock down the only person presenting an opinion that is based on shAstra. Another example of consistency would be, don't profess respect for shAstra, and then accuse the only person of presenting a shAstric opinion as a communist, an anti-Hindu, or the Hindu equivalent of a Bible-thumper.

5) Recognize that calling an ancient religious system's beliefs as "vile," merely because it is not consistent with one's own personal beliefs, is not exactly classy and not going to win you many friends among the fair-minded.

6) Don't attack another person's views by assigning impure motives to the person. Example: If I acknowledge the caste-differentiation that scriptures endorse, it does not follow that I do so because of personal gain. A Western academic could just as easily do it too, except that he would be far less sympathetic in his presentation.

The culture on these Hinduism forums of every Tom, Dick, and Harry attacking anyone and everyone whose views differ from one's own will not lead to thoughtful, mature, and insightful discussions. Especially if those people attack those who try to raise the standard of discussion by going to primary sources.

Do we want a forum where we can talk freely, or do we want mob justice?

[Viraja]

Namaste Philosoraptor,

From the perspective of psychology, I am inclined to say one thing to you -

Not everyone in this assembly (forum) here has read lot of scriptures.
i) That being given, people feel that the scriptures being really vast, that you may not be knowing all of it to present a view,

ii) EVen if you may be presenting a view based on some scripture(s), they want the first-hand experience to really agree with you. They are not going to take what you say as the authoritative words.

These are the reasons why you face challenges as stated in your post, IMO.

[philosoraptor]

I suspect the real reason is that many people see Hinduism as a coat that you can put on or take off as needed, and don't want to be reminded of disciplines, beliefs, or vows one is supposed to take if one is serious about it.

Which, I for one, have no problem with. Let people be casual Hindus and take as much as they are prepared. But then let them kindly not tell those of us who want to dive deeper to shut up.

That "back" button on the browser: It really can be useful, sometimes!