The Shame Capital.....

[Twilightdance]

Not to throw up muck, but ....

Self-styled Godman Asaram Bapu is the latest one to join the moral brigade over crimes against women. In an outrageous comment, Bapu said that the December 16 Delhi gang rape victim should have begged the rapists to stop, adding that the victim is as guilty as the rapists. The spiritual gurus remark comes at a time when the entire nation is mourning the death of the 23-year-old brave heart who died in a Singapore hospital 13 days later after the heinous crime. The spiritual leader is not the only one who has made such insensitive remarks in recent times. President Pranab Mukherjee's son and Congress's sitting MP from Jangipur, Abhijit Mukherjee, Trinamool Congress MP Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar, Madhya Pradesh Minister Kailash Vijaywargiya have all courted controversy through their outrageous comments in recent times over crimes against women.

http://www.timesnow.tv/INDIA/Asaram-...ow/4418333.cms

Asharam is no rep of hinduism, but truth is he commands millions of hindu followers and is a sant of the community. I am pretty sure there are many more who have not come out who hold similar or more regressive views based on their scriptural interpretation or simple bad education.

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

I was horrified reading this story and have been following this thread since December. I echo the other members comments here in sharing my deepest sympathy with the girl's family. Even with the barest of details, I felt sickened on reading this newstory.

Asaram Bapu's comments caught my eye today as well in an online newspaper article. I have never heard of this fellow, but his comments on her being as "guilty" as her rapist attackers are quite sad for me. It is lacking so much in compassion and so rife with misogyny, I cannot view this as a quote from a spiritual man, Hindu or otherwise.

Om namah Shivaya

[philosoraptor]

Those comments are really vile. Not that I like to state the obvious.

[dogra]

Asaram bapu, shoul dbe ashamed of his comments and apologise otherwise Kali ma will come after him.

The fact that this issue has been so highly publicised can onlh be welcome, as any society can only move forward when the bestiality within a number is exposed and punished.

Clear gender equality is enshrined in Hindu holy scriptures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_r...tory#Hindu_law

Yajur Veda 20.9 : "There are equal rights for men and women to get appointed as ruler."
Yajur Veda 16.44 : "There should be a women army. Let the women be encouraged to participate in war."
Yajur Veda 10.26 : "In this mantra it is enforced that the wife of ruler should give education of politics to the others. Likewise the king do justice for the people, the queen should also justify her role."
[49]
Rig Veda 10–191–3 : O women! These mantras are given to you equally (as to men). May your thoughts, too, be harmonious. May your assemblies be open to all without discrimination. Your mind and consciousness should be harmonious. I (the rishi) give you these mantras equally as to men and give you all and equal powers to absorb (the full powers) of these mantras."

[philosoraptor]

Clear gender equality is enshrined in Hindu holy scriptures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_r...tory#Hindu_law

Clear gender equality is NOT enshrined in Hindu holy scriptures. This is obvious to anyone who understands vedAnta, because a fundamental concept is the acknowledgement of our inequality as a result of different karmas, all beginningless.

Sadly, some people equate acknowledgement of gender differences as somehow akin to encouraging rape. This is an obnoxious position with no relevance to reality.

The Vedas you quoted do not say anything about gender equality. Here are the verses, one-by-one.

White Yajur Veda 20.9:

BIRTH PLACE of princely power art thou: centre art thou
of princely power.
Harm not thyself: do me no harm.
2 Varuna, Law's maintainer, hath sat down, etc., as in X. 27.
Save me from death. Save me from lightning.
3 Thee, by the radiant Savitar's impulsion, with arms of
Asvins, with the hands of Pûshan,
With leech-craft of the Asvins, I besprinkle for splendour,
for the lustre of a Brâhman;
With leech-craft of Sarasvatî, besprinkle for manly vigour
and for food to feed thee;
Besprinkle thee, by special power of Indra, for strength of
body and for fame and glory.
4 Thou art Ka. Noblest Ka art thou. Thee for the state and
rank of Ka.
Sumangala! Susloka! Satyarâjan!
5 My head be grace, my mouth be fame, my hair and beard
be brilliant sheen!
My breath be King and deathlessness, mine eye Sole Lord,
mine ear the Prince!
6 My tongue be bliss, my voice be might, my mind be wrath,
my rage self-lord!
Joys be my fingers, and delight my members, conquering
strength my friend!
7 Let my two arms be Indra's power, my hands be deed of
manly might, my soul and breast be princely rule! neck
8 My ribs be royal government, my belly, shoulders, neck,
and hips,
Thighs, elbows, knees, the people, yea, my members universally!
9 My navel intellect, etc., etc. ... ... ... ...
Duty am I in legs and feet, established King among the
folk.
10 I take my stand on princely power and Kingship, on cows
am I dependent, and on horses. on vital breath
On members I depend, and on the body,
dependent and on welfare, on heaven and earth and
sacrifice dependent.

White Yajur Veda 16.44:

42 Homage to him who is beyond and to him who is on this
side, homage to him who crosses over and to him who
crosses back. Homage to him who is in fords and on
river banks, homage to him who is in tender grass and in
foam.
43 Homage to him who is in sand and to him who is in running
water, homage to him who is on pebbly ground and to
him who is where still water stands. Homage to him
who wears braided hair and to him whose hair is smooth.
Homage to him who is in deserts and to him who is on
broad roads.
44 Homage to him who is in herds of cattle and to him who
is in cow-pens, homage to him who is on beds and to
him who is in houses. Homage to him who is in hearts,
and to him who is in whirlpools, homage to him who is in
wells and to him who is in abysses.
45 Homage to him who is in dry things and to him who is in
green things. Homage to him who is in dust and to him
who is in vapour. Homage to him who is in inaccessible
places, homage to him who is in creeping plants, homage
to him who is in the earth and to him who is in good soil.
46 Homage to him who is in leaves and to him who is in the
falling of leaves. Homage to him with the threatening
voice and to him who slays, homage to him who troubles
and to him who afflicts. Homage to you arrow-makers
and to you bow-makers, homage to you sprinklers, to the
hearts of the Gods. Homage to the discerners, homage
to the destroyers; homage to the indestructible.

White Yajur Veda 10.26:

23 All hail to Agni, Master of the Household! All-hail to Soma,
Sovran of the Forest!
All-hail to the great vigour of the Maruts! All-hail to the
effectual might of Indra!
Injure me not, O Mother Earth, and may I never injure thee.
24 The Hamsa throned in light, the Vasu in mid-air, the
Priest beside the altar, Guest within the house,
Dwelling in noblest place, mid men, in truth, in sky, born
of flood, kine, truth, mountain, be is mighty Law.
25 So great art thou: life art thou; give me life,
Mate art thou: thou art splendour; give me splendour.
Strength art thou: give me strength. I draw you downward,
two arms of Indra mighty in achievement.
26 Fair art thou, good to sit on, womb of kingship.
Sit on the fair one, sit on that which offers a pleasant seat:
sit in the womb of kingship.
27 Varuna, Law's maintainer, hath sat down among his people, he
Most wise, for universal sway.
28 Supreme Lord art thou. May these five regions of thine be
prosperous. Brahman! Thou art Brahman, Savitar art
thou, faithful in impulsion, Varuna art thou, he whose
power is real. Indra art thou, whose strength is of the
people. Rudra art thou, the very kind and gracious.

Rig Veda 10.191.3:

1. THOU, mighty Agni, gatherest up all that is precious for thy friend.
Bring us all treasures as thou art enkindled in libation's place
2 Assemble, speak together: let your minds be all of one accord,
As ancient Gods unanimous sit down to their appointed share.
3 The place is common, common the assembly, common the mind, so be their thought united.
A common purpose do I lay before you, and worship with your general oblation.
4 One and the same be your resolve, and be your minds of one accord.
United be the thoughts of all that all may happily agree.

May I kindly request that all members consider checking sources before quoting them second-hand.

regards,

[dogra]

See you have used Griffith translation of vedas, well other translations have been carried out by Hindu faith people.
So your Griffith translations may not be correct.
As a result do not agree with you, as we have the reconciling nature of female forms of God, so as a result if there were no gender equality why wouldl we have male and female forms of God? e.g. Kali ma Durga mata, what does this tell us if not gender equality.

Also here are some more verses:

Atharva Veda 14 January 1950 : "Hey wife! I am holding your hand for prosperity."
Atharva Veda 14 January 1961 : "Hey bride! You shall bring bliss to all and direct our homes towards our purpose of living."
Atharva Veda 14 February 1971 : "Hey wife! I am knowledgeable and you are also knowledgeable. If I am Samved then you are Rigved."
Atharva Veda 14 February 1974 : "This bride is illuminating. She has conquered everyone's hearts!"
Atharva Veda 7.38.4 and 12.3.52 : "Women should take part in the legislative chambers and put their views on forefront."
Rig Veda 10.85.7 : "Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality and power of knowledge when she leaves for husband's home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge."
Rig Veda 3.31.1 : "The right is equal in the fathers property for both son and daughter."

We can produce more.
It may not be obvious to you, but when you consider the overall natures of female forms of God, and verses, not Griffith translations, we come to a more cleare pictur and one that overall reconciles.

[dogra]

Hindu holy texts were not written in English but Sanskrit

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/...sh_hindus.html
please note:

There is an old story about how a computer, programmed to translate from English to Russian and back, rendered the phrase "The spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak" into "The Vodka was strong, but the meat was bad.

A similar phenomenon occurred when European scholars made their first translations of Hindu shastras into English in the 19th century. Unfortunately, it is often the translations of such European scholars which form some of the most readily available collections on Hindu scriptures. Examples of such translators include Max Muller, Ralph Griffith, Monier William and H. H. Wilson.

Although they played a role in the pursuit of English translations of Sanksrit works, they were relatively new to Sanskrit and without a background in the ideas of the Vedic era, for them to set out to translate the large and complex works of the Vedic age is an exercise bound to fail. It is comparable to a person trying to interpret a physics paper without a grounding in the basic concepts, but just having learnt the language.

In addition to the difficulty inherent in trying to interpret early Sanskrit of thousands of years ago by people who had only just discovered the language, some of these scholars (with a handful of honorable exceptions) also projected their own worldview, biases and agenda into their translation. For example, in the 19th century a racialist view of history was in vogue, whereby history was a product of constant invasions and subjugation of one race by another. Therefore, it was automatically assumed that anything sounding vaguely like a conflict in the Vedas was a race war between an invading European-like horde (Aryans) versus darker Dravidians, even if there was no objective evidence that this was the cas

So can you not use translations by griffith aas may not be correct!

[philosoraptor]

See you have used Griffith translation of vedas, well other translations have been carried out by Hindu faith people.
So your Griffith translations may not be correct.

I used the translations which are easily available online, which I concede are those of non-Hindus. Unfortunately, there are very few translations into English done by Hindus that aren't based on these European ones. If you know of one then please let me know. As far as the meaning possibly not being correct, I would credit even the mleccha scholar with being in the general ballpark of the correct meaning, and as you can see from the context provided, these passages have nothing to do with women. Now, if that isn't good enough, I can show you the Sanskrit for at least one of those quotes you provided, Rig Veda 10.191.13:

samāno mantraḥ samitiḥ samānī samānaṃ manaḥ saha cittameṣām |
samānaṃ mantramabhi maṇtraye vaḥ samānena vohaviṣā juhomi ||

I don't see anything here about addressing women, or about women being equal to men. If someone else does, please point it out to me.

As a result do not agree with you, as we have the reconciling nature of female forms of God, so as a result if there were no gender equality why wouldl we have male and female forms of God? e.g. Kali ma Durga mata, what does this tell us if not gender equality.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:
1) There are male and female deities in Hinduism (undisputed truth).
2) Male and female deities in Hinduism are equal (not objectively valid, at best arguable, but let's allow it for the sake of argument)
3) Therefore men and women according to Hinduism must be equal.

In that case, do you consider elephants, lions, turtles, and fish to be equal to men in Hinduism? After all, Hinduism also has an elephant-headed deity (Ganesha), a lion-headed deity (Narasimha), a turtle (Kurma), and a fish (Matsya). So, by your own logic, animals and people are equal. Is that a logical conclusion to you?

And while we are on the subject of "equality," how do you reconcile "equality" with the observed fact that people are not equal, that they have differences of intelligence, strength, upbringing, etc, and ultimately have different past karmas?

Also here are some more verses:

Atharva Veda 14 January 1950 : "Hey wife! I am holding your hand for prosperity."
Atharva Veda 14 January 1961 : "Hey bride! You shall bring bliss to all and direct our homes towards our purpose of living."
Atharva Veda 14 February 1971 : "Hey wife! I am knowledgeable and you are also knowledgeable. If I am Samved then you are Rigved."
Atharva Veda 14 February 1974 : "This bride is illuminating. She has conquered everyone's hearts!"
Atharva Veda 7.38.4 and 12.3.52 : "Women should take part in the legislative chambers and put their views on forefront."
Rig Veda 10.85.7 : "Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality and power of knowledge when she leaves for husband's home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge."
Rig Veda 3.31.1 : "The right is equal in the fathers property for both son and daughter."

I can't look up the first four that you provided, because you gave dates instead of verse numbers.

As far as atharva veda 7.38.4, here again is an excerpt from the Griffith translation:

I dig this Healing Herb that makes my lover look on me and
weep;
That bids the parting friend return and kindly greets him as he
comes.
2
This Herb wherewith the Asuri drew Indra downward from the
Gods,
With this same Herb I draw thee close that I may be most dear
to thee.
3
Thou art the peer of Soma, yea, thou art the equal of the Sun, p. a285
The peer of all the Gods art thou: therefore we call thee hither—
ward.
4
I am the speaker here, not thou: speak thou where the assembly
meets.
Thou shalt be mine and only mine, and never mention other
dames.
5
If thou art far away beyond the rivers, far away from men,
This Herb shall seem to bind thee fast and bring thee back my
prisoner.

I really don't see how you got, ""Women should take part in the legislative chambers and put their views on forefront."

Regarding atharva veda 12.3.52:

51
Man hath received this skin of his from nature: of other
animals not one is naked.
Ye make him clothe himself with might for raiment. Odana's
mouth is a home-woven vesture.
52
Whatever thou may say at dice, in meeting, whatever falsehood
through desire of riches,
Ye two, about one common warp uniting, deposit all impurity
within it.
53
Win thou the rain: approach the Gods. Around thee thou from
the skin shalt make the smoke rise upward.
Soon to be, decked with butter, all-embracing, come to this
world wherewith one birth unites thee.

This entire section is about a sacrificial offering that is to be presented by a householder along with his wife. There is nothing here about women putting forward their views in legislative chambers.

Rig Veda 10.85.7:

1. TRUTH is the base that bears the earth; by Sūrya are the heavens sustained.
By Law the Ādityas stand secure, and Soma holds his place in heaven.
2 By Soma are the Ādityas strong, by Soma mighty is the earth.
Thus Soma in the midst of all these constellations hath his place.
3 One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma's juice;
Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes.
4 Soma, secured by sheltering rules, guarded by hymns in Brhati,
Thou standest listening to the stones none tastes of thee who dwells on earth.
5 When they begin to drink thee then, O God, thou swellest out again.
Vāyu is Soma's guardian God. The Moon is that which shapes the years.
6 Raibhi was her dear bridal friend, and Narasamsi led her home.
Lovely was Sūrya's robe: she came to that which Gatha had adorned.
7 Thought was the pillow of her couch, sight was the unguent for her eyes:
Her treasury was earth and heaven.ẉhen Sūrya went unto her Lord.
8 Hymns were the cross-bars of the pole, Kurira-metre decked the car:
The bridesmen were the Aśvin Pair Agni was leader of the train.

Now, I don't see you get from that, "Parents should gift their daughter intellectuality and power of knowledge when she leaves for husband's home. They should give her a dowry of knowledge." But even if you did get that out of the Sanskrit, I don't see how that would indicates gender equality.

Rig Veda 3.31.1:

1. WISE, teaching, following the thought of Order, the sonless gained a grandson from his daughter.
Fain, as a sire, to see his child prolific, he sped to meet her with an eager spirit.
2 The Son left not his portion to the brother, he made a home to hold him who should gain, it.
What time his Parents gave the Priest his being, of the good pair one acted, one promoted.
3 Agni was born trembling with tongue that flickered, so that the Red's great children should be honoured.
Great is their germ, that born of them is mighty, great the Bays' Lord's approach through sacrifices.

Could you please let us all know what revisionist translations you are quoting from?

[dogra]

. In that case, do you consider elephants, lions, turtles, and fish to be equal to men in Hinduism? After all, Hinduism also has an elephant-headed deity (Ganesha), a lion-headed deity (Narasimha), a turtle (Kurma), and a fish (Matsya). So, by your own logic, animals and people are equal. Is that a logical conc

Well this is sidetracking and avoidance of basics that men and women are parts of god , hence enshrinement of gender equality and Ganesha shows we should pay regard to animals and treat with respect.
It's staring us in the face
We say jai mataji not jai pappaji
Again Griffith translation may not be correct
Swami dayanand has spoken as well as well aurobindo
Agniveer has and is translating Vedas
Rather rely on learned people than Griffith who was new to sanskrit
Reconciliation to female forms of god also required

[dogra]

U can find more information here:
http://agniveer.com/women-in-vedas/