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Thread: The Shame Capital.....

  1. #91
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Namaste

    If society has its attention taken by an obvious crime, and this case of rape has taken the attention of not only those in India who are outraged by it but is being covered here in the US not only in the news but also a subject matter of radio and satellite talk shows listened to by millions, and though I am not aware of whether it is the attention of Europe, South America, or Asian countries, etc., I do know that it has notable attentions that spans national boundaries even despite the initial efforts perhaps of some Indian officials to moderate or even hush-up the awareness of what happened, such attention often becomes a driver where the input and attention of "religious leaders" and forums are sought after for some guide.

    It is a heavy burden for those who have been given a mantle of religion (or in some cases taken the mantle themselves, which may not always be productive). "Religion" is in itself a controversial word, I do not equate it with the same as "Hinduism" or truth, and so on (IMO). But that is the word used, and in context of that, and in context of this particular crime against Hinduism in these rapes, I would hope that those who have this mantle would see this as an opportunity (as complicated and perhaps controversial the word "opportunity" is in the context of the horrific events that occurred) - an opportunity to give comfort to the victims, to the victim's families, to be an example of exemplary and wise words that try to give hope, not add to fear that another will be the next victim, that try to give light, not add to the fear that another dark event is awaiting them as well, that the flame of violence (which is what rape is) is only to be used to protect the soul and not to rape the soul, and as is often the observance of those who are gripped by such an event as the attention of so many all over the world that those who are now looking right at this event and those who respond to it can understand that more often than not, it is not "religion" to blame nor is it a problem with the "faith" but only the "faithful" when it fails to give the enlightened response.

    This is the opportunity to assure that such crime is rejected by Hinduism, to make the message simple and clear and even if the breadth and depth of Hinduism is so very deep as it is, to just use the opportunity to focus on this answer that rape is wrong no matter what. I know this seems to be the consensus (whether "consensus" even matters) of this one thread, I hope this is the answer to those who are looking. So the opportunity is there, that if there are some who want to stoke the avenues of others who might want to use such violent conflict of their own internal conflicts against women in this way, it is a better council to use the opportunity to stoke and promote justice and peace. I am not even so sure as to whether those who did this horrific crime did so out of total loss of self-control or passion, or more so due to these internal conflicts that are inside of a sickness of society today that plays out into these violent acts of disrespect for others and in particular to women.

    One side of the "religion" often likes to talk about the importance of respect. You must respect this "class" or that "duty". But respect is earned (of course), and respect is taught in many ways. Today, I get in my car (sometimes with my family) and I go out into a world that is sorely lacking all respect on all fronts. If my window to my car is down, it seems there isn't even 1 hour that will go by with some other car pulling up next to me, blasting the most vile and disgusting "music" with lyrics about abusing women, killing police officers, sex antics, rap and other forms of violence in music, and the "broadcast" is obviously not intended for the listener of the car who is blaring this garbage out (and for some mentally deficient reason of the one blasting it) but for the purpose of trying to force everyone around them to "ha ha! listen to this! he he! you all listen to this and LOOK at me!"...

    This is more and more a total breakdown in respect within our society. And part of this is, selfishness. The ugly soul who is blasting this vile from their car, they are selfish. They are only about themselves. They want you to look at them, "Look at me!". The attitude. No respect for others.

    This is a moment now, when large parts of the world are looking at you who may have the mantle of "religion" or Hinduism, to keep it simple and direct so that we see respect prosper. There is not need to deviate from a very simple answer in this case. I am glad everyone agrees (I hope so!) that this was a horrific crime. That rape is nt given continence - because respect is important. This is an opportunity for those who have such a mantle, and for those who are looked at you as "layman" such as myself, to see the response is about reconciliation and justice, inspiration for such, a bridge and chasm against ignorance, fear and misunderstanding, and against disrespect for women. I am not even sure what "equality" means in one way. The number one may be equal to one. But that is a number, a measure. No one soul is so simple. What is the Sanskrit word for "equal"? Why add so much complexity at a time when a clear answer is all that is required? The crying of a krauncha bird that inspired the verses that captured the Histories of the Ramayana came from a bird that may not be equal to an eagle, or equal to you. But what is this "equal"? The events happened. Then and now. Righ tnow, I was sort of hoping to hear about peace-loving, anything that can counterbalance this. So I guess it seems that I am told Hinduism teaches that this case, these rapes, what happened here, is wrong. That it is a crime.

    So for any women reading this thread, the "consensus" is, you should not be raped while here in a human body on this world called Earth. That is disrespectful. To say the least. I am glad to learn these things from those who want to teach them or voice an authority on the matter, because I am not an authority.

    Today I think of Mother Annapurna. She is wanting to give physical and spiritual food. Lord Shiva begged alms from Her.

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Last edited by ShivaFan; 26 January 2013 at 01:24 PM. Reason: typo (e.g. mantle)

  2. #92

    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    If one uses common sense one cannot stick to religion at the same time, so it is not a fair expectation.

    Besides, phil is right, shruti and smriti doesnt give same status to men and women. Shruti may be amgious or silent on the issue, but smriti is absolutely clear in giving a differnt social status to women and shudras.

    He is wrong in saying all ancient societies are like that or even all of hinduism shares same patriarchal thinking of the vedic civilization. Contradiction in current hinduism is because is because it is not based on a common set of scriptures or beliefs. Reason why we say "jai mata di" has nothing to with the vedic civilization. Durga mata may be the highest divinity, but it is incorrect to try to find her in rudra adhyaya.

    Disagree with reagrds to common sense, as every verse is not literal and there has to be reconciliation to basics, like female and male forms of god, which clearly tell us gender equality, otherwise why have female forms of God?
    Smrtri, which smritri , as u klnow smrtri is not holy and has to be linne with shrutri. Manu has been corrupted, but also Manu says this:
    3.56. The society that provides respect and dignity to women flourishes with nobility and prosperity. And a society that does not put women on such a high pedestal has to face miseries and failures regardless of howsomuch noble deeds they perform otherwise.
    so which is it, why the discrepancies and non reconciliation to basics, question shave to asked ,, and inferences taken.
    Quite clearly gender equality is enshrined in Hindu holy texts,

    Jai Mata di must come from somewhere, and Vedic civilisation did follow gender equality, otherwise why would there be male and female forms of god, why, basic fundamental question which just gets passed aside, well it cannot be passed as the basic fundamental truth stares us in the face, also
    http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_070503.htm

    Men are extolled to consider womanhood as being worthy of worship and it is made clear that it is normal for men to praise their wives. “Just as Indradeva is praised like tree bearing fruit and warriors dexterous in the use of weapons and by newly trained rishis, we too pray to the much adorned and venerated Indradeva just as man praises his wife.” Rigveda Samhita, Part-2, sukta 21, sloka 3287

    The Vedic period was glorified by the tradition. Many rishis were women. Indeed several of them authored many of the slokas in the Vedas. For instance in the Rigveda there is a list of women rishis. Some of these names are: Ghoshsha, Godha, Vishwawra, Apala, Upanishad, Brahmjaya, Aditi, Indrani, Sarma, Romsha, Urvashi, Lopamudra, Yami, Shashwati, Sri, Laksha and many others. In the Vedic period women were free to enter into brahmacharya just as men and become sannyasins

    Durga mata jai, and it is correct to see that such a power is a female, what does this clearly state? ans: gender equality
    Jai Mataji

  3. #93

    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Hinduism is not to take blame, when you consider the reconciling points it provides for gender equality, cultural **** of a number of corrupt followers is to blame.

  4. #94

    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Here we have two historians view

    Will Durant (1885–1981) American historian says that "women enjoyed far greater freedom in the Vedic period than in later India. She had more to say in the choice of her mate than the forms of marriage might suggest. She appeared freely at feasts and dances, and joined with men in religious sacrifice. She could study, and like Gargi, engage in philosophical disputation. If she was left a widow there were no restrictions upon her remarriage."[51]
    Louis Jaccoliot (1837–1890) who worked in French India as a government official and was at one time President of the Court in Chandranagar, translated numerous Vedic hymns and the celebrated author of the Bible in India: Hindoo Origin of Hebrew and Christian Revelation said: "India of the Vedas entertained a respect for women amounting to worship; a fact which we seem little to suspect in Europe when we accuse the extreme East of having denied the dignity of woman, and of having only made her an instrument of pleasure and of passive obedience." He also said: "What! here is a civilization, which you cannot deny to be older than your own, which places the woman on a level with the man and gives her an equal place in the family and in society

  5. #95
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Namaste,

    As the veil of secrecy lifts a little over the identity of the youngest accused in this case, it provides a window into the turning of a docile 11 year village boy into a brutal murderer/rapist who caused the most damage to the victim's internal organs by beating her with iron rods. Out there in big cities, are millions of migrant youngsters from villages/small towns, some of whom without any family/emotional support in their formative years may grow up to become cold and hardened criminals capable of repeating the crimes that this juvenile committed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21229331

    Pranam.

  6. #96
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Namaste Believer,

    There had been almost one hundred views registered on this subject. I wish you had a chance to read Justice Verma's recommendations and his boot licking oops praise for SG.

    I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but can you tell me what else has this event triggered than being an excellent occasion for SUNDAY chai-biscuit discussion. Pardon my tone but don't discard the message.
    Anirudh...

  7. #97

    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Believer, I think you have erred in posting this story. This excerpt in particular is very troubling:

    "The news made me angry, but I was heart-broken as well. I couldn't believe what the police told me. He was a very sensitive child and would be scared to confront anybody in the village. I'm sure he fell into bad company in Delhi and was led into committing this shameful act," she says, teary-eyed.

    "I'm not sure if I can forgive him. If he has committed this crime, he should be given a harsh punishment. He made us infamous in the entire village. My heart sinks when I think about the future of my daughters. Who will marry them now?"

    She says she has decided against sending her other three sons to Delhi as a result of the incident.
    It is not acceptable to post stories of Indian villagers being angry or ashamed at the idea of their progeny becoming rapists. The politically correct position is that we Indian males enslave our females, and because we don't give them sacred thread initiation and jobs as temple priests, it shows that we treat them as second-class citizens who can be starved or raped whenever we want. It was therefore not appropriate for this poor, starving woman to express shame at the thought of her son becoming a rapist. Please modify your postings to bring them into line with politically-correct truths. We can't have the public thinking that we Indians are as human as other human beings, now can we?
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  8. #98
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Namaste,

    Camping is a normal and popular hobby in the West. But in India, as well as in other Asian countries, one does not dare spend the night out in the wild unless it is in an organized group setting with proper security measures. I wish foreigners visiting India would be appraised of this, so that they don't become victims of low lives.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t3

    Pranam.

  9. #99
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    Vanakkam,

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,

    Camping is a normal and popular hobby in the West. But in India, as well as in other Asian countries, one does not dare spend the night out in the wild unless it is in an organized group setting with proper security measures. I wish foreigners visiting India would be appraised of this, so that they don't become victims of low lives.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/17/world/...html?hpt=hp_t3

    Pranam.
    These mens should not be considered human beings anymore. There is no words to justify such brutality. I understand beating people to steal their belongings, however I fail to see any motive to do such a thing to a woman. She may be alive, but trust me, after experiencing a rape a woman is not as alive as before. I changes a woman so much, you live like a living dead after.
    A life for which pleasure ? What can you enjoy in this ?

    This is horrible. Why is this happening ?

    This is one of the stupidest idea to camping in this kind of place. But why 5 mens can do this to a woman ? What goes into their brains ? What are they thinking ?
    I fail to understand this.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    ~Aum Namah Shivaya~

  10. #100
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    Re: The Shame Capital.....

    While I acknowledge the less-than-wise decision to camp without the presents of a large tour group while in an unfamiliar country, I still find it disturbing that there are people roaming the woods like wolves looking for victims.

    The article I read on this didn't mention whether the couple was camping at a "camp site" (Is that even a thing in India?) or if they were really just back-packing across country. I can imagine it's very difficult to police wide stretches of unpopulated country. But it's also strange to me that these criminals were able to find these people unless they'd been following them for days. Which just makes the whole thing more disturbing.

    As a woman, stories like this are definitely discouraging to say the least. India is one of those places I dream about visiting, but if things like this are becoming more common rather then less common will I have to put India on a list of "inhospitable" countries, off limits to travel - because I'm a woman? My only source of optimism is that these incidents are not more common, but are just more visible due to mass media exchange.

    I'm glad they are protecting the identity of the victims at least. Rape is traumatic enough without having the whole world know you're identity. I hope she have family and friends to help her heal over time, although as McKitty mentioned, Rape isn't something you "get over". It stays with you forever.
    "God will not have his work made manifest by cowards."
    ~Ralph Waldo Emerson


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