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Thread: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

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    Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Namaste all.

    I practice gaudiya-vaishnava but at the same time I feel very attracted to Patanjali's raja-yoga.
    I am reading the following book:
    http://www.ibs.it/libro+inglese/brya...865477360.html

    My question is the following:is ultimate raja-yoga's samadhi necessarly advaita or can it be dualistic and so compatible with my dualistic vaishnava path?

    Pranama,
    Orlando.

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Quote Originally Posted by orlando View Post
    My question is the following:is ultimate raja-yoga's samadhi necessarly advaita or can it be dualistic and so compatible with my dualistic vaishnava path?
    A few ideas for your consideration...
    Patajali’s yogadarśana goes hand-in-hand with the śāṁkhya view of Reality... hence a nice fit and therefore within the realm of dvaita or two.

    While this path is often called rāja yoga, a more appropos name ( as called out by patajali muni himself) is kriyā-yoga.

    iti śiva

    words
    • dvaita - seperateness or 2 - diversity
      • advaita - no seperateness or not two - unity
      • viśiṣṭādvaita - seperate yet - unity in diversity
    • śeṣa pātajali informs us in the 2nd chapter, 1st sūtra: trapaḥsvādhyāyeśvarapraṇidhānāni kriyāyogaḥ ||1
      This says,
      tapas + study, recitation, of sacred texts + devotion to the Supreme (īśvara) is kriyā-yoga.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Quote Originally Posted by orlando View Post
    Namaste all.

    I practice gaudiya-vaishnava but at the same time I feel very attracted to Patanjali's raja-yoga.
    I am reading the following book:
    http://www.ibs.it/libro+inglese/brya...865477360.html

    My question is the following:is ultimate raja-yoga's samadhi necessarly advaita or can it be dualistic and so compatible with my dualistic vaishnava path?

    Pranama,
    Orlando.
    Pranam Orlando,

    you got a very genuine question.and probably you may not got a satisfactory answer from a pure advitin. let me give you a answer.

    There are two path to truth/knowledge.

    1-path of analysis (Jnana yoga)

    2-path of synthesis (Bhakti yoga)

    The Raja-yoga is a path in path of Jnana.You disjoin anything and everything to realize ultimately that you are beyond everything,the sat-chit-ananda.You will be merged in blissfull infinite (BARHMANANDA).

    In path of devotion,you consider anything and everything as your Beloved and you are smaller and a servant(dualism).this way you make yourself so smaller that you loose your existence in your beloved in bhava samadhi.where ever you look,you will see your beloved.Here also you will be merged in ocean of blissfull love infinite with your beloved.

    Both the path are on either side of a single coin.You will be complete only when you go by path of analysis and after reaching the peak,you have to descend through path of synthesis.

    So the common path is you should target Knowledge in the path of Devotion.you will get to see both side of the coin.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    In addition to Yajvan ji and anirvan ji's answers,

    I would say Yes, Nirvikalp samadhi is necessary for moksha and is the final state. There is no mukti without knowledge.

    In Bhakti marga, as said by Anirvan ji, bhakta looses himself/herself i.e. his identity and merges into beloved deity. After that only God is left (technically).

    Sri Ramakrishna, who had experienced all types of samadhis and practised many paths and spiritual disciples, said that Advaita is the last word in spirituality.

    God loves his beloved deity more than devotee loves God. God will take to you nirvikalp samadhi, by any means, either at the time of death or in through some Guru (as in case of Sri Ramakrishna) or directly teach the devotee to go beyond Maya and merge completely into Brahman.

    It happened in case of Shri Narasimnh Mehta. When he realised while worshipping Shri Krushna that who is the one giving inspiration to worship, the answer came, shri Krushna. Spontaneously words came from his heart after realization,

    (in Gujarati) Brahma Latkaa kare Brahma saame

    meaning: Brahman is worshiping Brahma.n

    Please note it is not Kruhsna worshipping Krushna. He has also composed Advaita Bhajans.

    Sri Ramakrishna got permission from Maa Kali, whom he worshiped with heart and soul and used to talk like we talk face-to-face with people. Upon request by an advaitin sadhu (Sri Totapuri), who never accepted bhakti and maya and even made fun of idol worship when he saw his young disciple clapping and singing bhajans, Sri Ramakrishna asked Maa Kali what to do and she gave Sri Ramakrishna the permission to study. Only thing that was stopping him from entering into nirvikalp samadhi ws Maa Kali. He could very easily renounce everything, but not Maa Kali ad her face would shine bright whenever he sat in meditation. But finally he managed to go beyond Maya and entered into formless Brahman.

    Ideally, you have to experience both sides of coin.

    Jnana: First Nirvikalp samadhi and then Maya
    Bhakti: First Savikalp samadhi or bhava samadhi and then Nirvikalp
    Yog: First Shakti and then Nirvikalp Samadhi

    So if a Jnani says that only Nirvikalp samadhi is enough, then he is a Jnana but on a Jivan Kukta. Even Jnani has to accept Maya and felt that it is not separate from Brahman just like fire and it's warmth.

    This happened to Sri Totapuri Baba, a staunch Advaitin, who belied that there is no such thing like Maya and took 50 years to experience Nirvikalp samadhi, but again mind would turn to duality and so he needed to regularly meditate to enter into samadhi. After staying for some months with Sri Ramakrishna, one day, his strong physical body, which generally remained disease free, became sick. Strong minded Totapuri would not stop to meditate, but one day the pain was too much and mind came down to body. Tired of his body, he thought, "I know without doubt that I am not body. This body is the cause of suffering. So let me surrender (drawn) this body in Holy River Ganga."

    He made up his mind and then meditated for the last time trying to enter nirvikalp samadhi. Then he walked towards Ganga, entered into the waters. Thinking that body with sink as he will walk into the river, he kept walking until he realised that he has crossed the river and reached opposite bank. It was night time, but he could see shadows like trees nearby.

    He exclaimed," oh today, there is not enough water in Ganga to sink me". Suddenly something struck him and he saw Maa Kali. His heart filled with Joy and after few moments intolerable pain disappeared. He then realized that his sadhana is incomplete and left dakshineshwar next morning after meeting his beloved disciple Sri Ramakrishna. For the first time in his life, he went to temple. Bot guru and disciple went to Maa Kali's temple and first the first time ever he did a shastanga Pranam to Maa Kali. The experience at night still fresh in his mind and his heart filled with Joy. They both for intimation that it was time of Totapuri to leave the place and carry on his spiritual journey.

    Sri Ramakrishna said that, Totapuri could reach nirvikalp samadhi because of the grace of Maa Kali (maya, prakruti, shakti), but he didn't realize this grace.

    Man is free and do not nee to meditate any further after he experiences both Brahman and Maya. Sri Ramakrishna says that generally after entering into nirvikalp samadhi, one can stay in body in that state for 21 days. Only avatars can stay for more than 21 days (Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Adi Shankaracharya stayed in this state for 6 months) and come back again in this world. After 21 days. body drops permanently. Generally it is not possible for average soul to return back to normal consciousness, but to a select few, God brings their consciousness in the body and keeps a pseudo ego for kalyan of this world.

    In simple e.g that even an advaitin, who neglects Maya, needs Maya's grace ot advance in spirituality, is given by Sri Ramakrishna:

    One day, Rama, Sita and Laxman were walking through a narrow lane in which only one person can walk. (i.e. the lane was not wide enough to accomodate 2 persons side by side). So Rama, followed by Sita followed with Laxman walked through the lane. Laxman (Jiva) was a param bhakta of Rama and he wanted to have his constant vision. But Maa Sita (Maya) was in between both of them. Laxaman would try to have a glimpse of Rama (God). Realizing this, time to time, Sita would move to a side to give a glimpse for few moments to have vision of Rama.

    So it all depends upon path which experience will you have first, but according to Sri Ramakrishna, you need to experience both Brahman and Maya to be eternally free.

    EDIT:
    The only thing is that, as a bhakta, you do not need to worry about it. Having divine vision of God and to stay at lotus feet for ever should be the goal.

    Namaste

    Aum
    Last edited by Amrut; 21 December 2012 at 01:43 AM. Reason: added last line
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Nirvikalpa samadhi is not considered a nondual state by non-Advaitins.You may want to see this thread for further details-

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=9580
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    Nirvikalpa samadhi is not considered a nondual state by non-Advaitins.You may want to see this thread for further details-

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=9580
    Might be

    But that will trigger yet another huge debate

    As far as I am concerned, I would like to stay out of it.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Might be

    But that will trigger yet another huge debate

    As far as I am concerned, I would like to stay out of it.
    The OP's question was whether nirvikalpa samdhi is necessarily nondualistic to which I gave the appropriate reply rather than an irrelevelant and rambling post on advaita's POV of nirvikalpa samadhi.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Namaste all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Sri Ramakrishna says that generally after entering into nirvikalp samadhi, one can stay in body in that state for 21 days. Only avatars can stay for more than 21 days (Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Adi Shankaracharya stayed in this state for 6 months) and come back again in this world. After 21 days. body drops permanently. Generally it is not possible for average soul to return back to normal consciousness, but to a select few, God brings their consciousness in the body and keeps a pseudo ego for kalyan of this world.
    Because of my bad english I am not sure to understand.
    Does that mean that the person leave his body(=die)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality
    So it all depends upon path which experience will you have first, but according to Sri Ramakrishna, you need to experience both Brahman and Maya to be eternally free.
    As western Hare Krishna,I am not disciple of Sri Ramakrishna but of Srila Prabhupada...with due respect to Ramakrishna

    I don't wish at all to merge with impersonal Brahman but to live eternally at Vaikuntha together with God(Krishna) and His associates.

    Advaita is not my path and even if Krishna him-self offered me advaita samadhi I would reject it(advaita samadhi) like venomous poison and answer Him "My Lord,all I want is to be Your eternal servant"

    Pranama,
    Orlando.
    Last edited by orlando; 21 December 2012 at 04:49 AM.

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality
    Sri Ramakrishna says that generally after entering into nirvikalp samadhi, one can stay in body in that state for 21 days. Only avatars can stay for more than 21 days (Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Adi Shankaracharya stayed in this state for 6 months) and come back again in this world. After 21 days. body drops permanently. Generally it is not possible for average soul to return back to normal consciousness, but to a select few, God brings their consciousness in the body and keeps a pseudo ego for kalyan of this world.
    Originally said by orlando:

    Because of my bad english I am not sure to understand.
    Does that mean that the person leave his body(=die)?
    EDIT: Yes. The job of body is done. Remember body is just an instrument and an advaitin never identifies himself with the body.

    there are instances when Bhakta saints merge into their beloved idol.

    Originally said by orlando:
    As western Hare Krishna,I am not disciple of Sri Ramakrishna but of Srila Prabhupada...with due respect to Ramakrishna

    I don't wish at all to merge with impersonal Brahman but to live eternally at Vaikuntha together with God(Krishna) and His associates.

    Advaita is not my path and even if Krishna him-self offered me advaita samadhi I would reject it(advaita samadhi) like venomous poison and answer Him "My Lord,all I want is to be Your eternal servant"

    Pranama,
    Orlando.
    No problem. Thats what I said. You have the right attitude.

    "Do you know how a lover of God feels? His attitude is: 'O God, Thou are the Master, and I am Thy servant. Thou art the Mother, and I am Thy child.' Or again: 'Thou art my Father and Mother. Thou art the Whole, and I am a part.' He doesn't like to say, 'I am Brahman.'

    Source: Sri Ramakrishna Jivan Charitra (Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna) by M
    maybe you missed the below line from my previous post, as I added this line later after 5 minutes of original post.

    Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality
    EDIT:
    The only thing is that, as a bhakta, you do not need to worry about it. Having divine vision of God and to stay at lotus feet for ever should be the goal.
    I explained it in detail just to explain it from dual and non-dual perspective since you are trying to catch up 2 paths. Clarity is necessary for spiritual progress.

    Even in Yog, finally one merges with higher soul / Brahman / God, etc.

    There will be differences in approaches, but most important is the spiritual progress. The common thing is more you step towards God, more you lose interest in worldly matters.

    As one progresses, mind wants only and only god or Brahman or what to unite with Atman.

    Sri Ramakrishna has done bhakti and have divine vision of God through das bhava, prem bhava, vatsalya bhava, etc, tantric sadhana and advaita vedanta. He also realised same truth through other religions like Islam and christianity. Finally reached a conclusion that all paths lead to same truth.

    I thought he would be an ideal person to quote.

    Never mind if you do not follow or read Sri Ramakrishna. Sri Ramakrishna has great influence on me and so I give his quotes. It's better than creating your own stuff. Besides Sri Ramakrishna's language is very simple and easy to understand.

    I have realized one thing in life rigidity does more harm than help. Please do not mistaken it with one-pointedness.

    If you do not mind reading some of his thoughts, please visit

    Attitude of Jnanis and Bhaktas - Sri Ramakrishna
    Attitude of yogis - Sri Ramakrishna

    God Himself has provided different forms of worship.
    God can be realized through all paths

    All paths are equally potent and better not to mix them.

    Also do not worry about bad English, mine is not good either. Please do not hesitate to ask for clarification any time in future (as far as I am concerned).

    Patalgali's Raj Yog and final non-dual state are one and the same thing. They may be expressed in different ways by different names and expression.

    I summarized as below

    Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality
    Ideally, you have to experience both sides of coin.

    Jnana: First Nirvikalp samadhi and then Maya
    Bhakti: First Savikalp samadhi or bhava samadhi and then Nirvikalp
    Yog: First Shakti and then Nirvikalp Samadhi
    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Is ultimate samadhi necessary not-dualistic?

    Namaste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    EDIT: Yes. The job of body is done. Remember body is just an instrument and an advaitin never identifies himself with the body.
    1)Mind is just an instrument as well.

    2)I think that all hindus do not consider them-self as their bodies.
    For example,as gaudiya-vaishnava,I consider my-self an eternal spiritual soul and an infinitesimal parcel of God.

    Pranama,
    Orlando.

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