Gurus and Disagreement

[Webimpulse]

Namaste all,

This question is short and easy to type, but might be difficult to answer. My question: what should one do when one's guru says something you don't necessarily agree with? Is it necessary to agree with everything one's guru says to preserve the guru-disciple relationship? Or can one disagree with some certain things one's guru says and still benefit from their tutelage?

Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question...I know in today's world there are some unscrupulous self-proclaimed "gurus" out there and so it's important to scrutinize, but at the same time, many scriptures and Hindus in general talk about obedience and surrender to one's guru as a mandatory part of one's path.

Any guidance on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Twilightdance]

It is natural to not agree to everything one's guru says.

[Amrut]

Namaste all,

This question is short and easy to type, but might be difficult to answer. My question: what should one do when one's guru says something you don't necessarily agree with? Is it necessary to agree with everything one's guru says to preserve the guru-disciple relationship? Or can one disagree with some certain things one's guru says and still benefit from their tutelage?

Hopefully this doesn't sound like a stupid question...I know in today's world there are some unscrupulous self-proclaimed "gurus" out there and so it's important to scrutinize, but at the same time, many scriptures and Hindus in general talk about obedience and surrender to one's guru as a mandatory part of one's path.

Any guidance on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

Without doubt and hesitation and without slightest resistance, free of skepticism, one should undoubtedly agree and follow to 'Sad Guru'

A realized Saint is only a Sad Guru.

When it comes to other Gurus or Self Proclaimed, take them as Kathakars (story tellers). Respect them for their knowledge, but do not blindly follow them. IF you do not agree, then do not follow their teachings

To know if a Guru is realized is very difficult. You fell immense peace and you listen to him without doubt. You feel a certain attraction for this Guru and find that his words contain depth and even though may not agree with them, you think that there is something in what he says and your heart says to follow him. You also pray a lot to God to show a way and guide you out of a problem, be it material or spiritual / meditation related.

God makes your mind neutral and makes you receptive before you start interacting with Guru who has got orders from the God (you are praying repeatedly) to clear your doubts.

Refer How to prepare for the guru? Post #5, #6, #7, #8

Aum

[Sanja]

Namasté,

I'd like to share my thoughts on that if I may.

I don't have a guru but now and then I come across people that mean a lot to me. It's not so much the things they say but I can feel that they are more connected with god then I am at the time.
For me it's like a teacher that has been sent to me. For a while this person leads me on my journey to God.
Sometimes he says something I agree with then I learn from his words.
Sometimes I don't agree and then I learn from self-reflection.
If I feel that there is a special relationship between me and him/her then there is. A relationship can be good or bad but you always learn from it.

For me anyone could be a guru. I see Krishna in everyone for everyone represents just another aspect of the same essence. There is a certain reason why we come across the one or the other person....even if it is a "unscrupulous self-proclaimed guru".
But to be honest, I don't think we should say that about anyone for even someone like this is a part of God and therefore a part of our own spiritual path. It might not be easy to see the wisdom and truth in someone like that but I don't claim to understand all the circumstances that lead to my personal development.

For me the answer to all that is to be happy and thankful for what I recieve, even if can't see what it's good for at the moment.
But I trust in Krishna and in my own spiritual intelligence and therefore I will know when to follow a certain guru.
My heart will tell me it's right, even if my mind has another point of view.

Love and bleesings,

Sanja

[Amrut]

Nice practical approach Sanja

[Viraja]

It would be a very tough situation to find a guru, to begin trusting him immensely to be a great guide but then to disagree with him/her on important things. It reminds me of 2 instances from tales of the yore:

1. The guru/shishya disagreement of Srimad Ramanuja and Yadava Prakasa.

2. Of Vaisampayana and Yajnavalkya.

It would be of interest to note the guru/shishya disagreement in their tales. In those days itself, the gurus were immensely hurt and took to jealousy and deepest dislike of their sishyas for disagreeing with them. These days -- it is doubtful where it will lead to. But then, a lot has to do with one's prarabhda too.

[orlando]

1. The guru/shishya disagreement of Srimad Ramanuja and Yadava Prakasa.

Please note that Sri Ramanujacarya was not a common person.
He was an avatara of Ananta Sesha:


That means that Ramanujacarya was both Ananta Sesha,Lakshmana and Balarama

The mission of Lord Ananta as Sri Ramanuja was to combat Advaita philosophy

[Viraja]

Orlando,

This guru Yadava Prakasa of Srimad Ramanuja was not an advaitin. He was a Vaishnava himself. It appears Srimad Ramanuja disagreed with him on one important lesson Yadava Prakasa was teaching his pupils. Look at the taste of the guru, when there is a Sanskrit verse that describes the 'reddishness' of the eyes of Lord Narasimhadeva likening it to red lotus, due to some ambiguity in the Sanskrit term used, Yadava Prakasa translates that as 'red like the very bottom of a monkey'! Srimad Ramanuja who had been serving at the feet of his guru starts shedding tears at this description of the Lord's eyes and he corrects his guru that the verse refers to the eyes as being as red as a 'red Lotus'. After this incident and another disagreement, the guru plots to KILL Srimad Ramanuja from which Srimad Ramanuja escapes out of divine grace.

Similarly in the story of Yajnavalkya, he disagrees with his guru on many terms of interpretation of the great Krishna Yajur Veda by Vaisampayana, the guru. Thereupon the guru askes Yajnavalkya to return back to him all the veda learnt from him as a student and to 'walk out' upon which Yajnavalkya spits out the entire Krishna Yajurveda learnt.

There are few stories like this in days of old which show how far the gurus who themselves were great yogis who meditated upon god as a 'Vanaprashta' and still disliked to as much extent their learned sishyas for their disagreements!

One cannot imagine what will gurus of today who are not yogis but are practical men mostly immersed in wordly life will go to will all the power and wealth upon disagreement by learnt sishyas who appear to be better than them!

Pranam.

[orlando]

Namaste all.

One cannot imagine what will gurus of today who are not yogis but are practical men mostly immersed in wordly life will go to will all the power and wealth upon disagreement by learnt sishyas who appear to be better than them!

I will not talk about the gurus of other hindu tradition because I have very little knowledge of them.

Anyway gaudiya-vaishnava gurus are true bhakti-yogis who see God face to face.
The self-realized gaudiya-vaishnava(who has the role of guru) lives at the same time here and in the spiritual world,where he can see Lord Krishna and His associates face to face.

Thought the grace of a self-realized guru,also a kanista-adhikari(third-class devotee) and even a total materialist can have a "special gift" in this regard.

Because of these spiritual visions,that allow the devote to have direct vision of God and spiritual world,Krishna Consciuosness(gaudiya-vaishnavism) is not a religion but a spiritual science(like Astanta-yoga).

Now I guess you are asking "what has this to do with what I said?"

The answer is that a true guru is a totally good person and so one should never disagree with such actual self-realized guru.
And in case we don't understand something that he says or he instructs us to do,we should do still follow his instructions and expect to understand them in the future.

Pranama,
Orlando.

[Jeffery D. Long]

The unfoldment of one's spiritual life is a process. We may disagree with something at this moment, and then see its wisdom much later. There are also shades of disagreement. There are some things we should no doubt reject vehemently (such as if someone who claims to be our guru should tell us to do something obviously immoral). But there are many, many other things that we may wish to simply keep on a shelf in our mind, so to speak, neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but returning to them later with the wisdom of experience and greater insight.

We do not want to surrender our critical capacities to just anyone. But we also have to remember that a real guru may need to tell us hard truths that we do not want, at that moment, to accept.