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Thread: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

  1. #1
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    Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Namaste

    I am working on an article for the "Wonders of India" project I have been slowly putting to documentation. Currently I am working on an article regarding Raja Harishchandra. Below is the Introduction to this article which deals with lineage. I believe I have the information correct, but I also find evidence that the Buddha was from the same lineage as the Solar Dynasty. I am seeking expert views on this. Also if you could review the introduction below and comment if the lineage looks correct. Keep in mind, the audience is for a Western audience.

    Om Namah Sivaya

    A Promise Kept

    There are many renowned Rajas of India, often their life journey provides an example of enduring qualities that are admired by both the Gods and men. Once glorious chapter as a case in point is the epic chronicles of one of the great Rajas (Kings) of the Solar Dynasty named Harishchandra. This Raja was the very example of honoring a promise made, for keeping one’s word is one of the expected characteristics of a Hindu Raja. To a true Raja, one’s word is equal to one’s honor, and the honor and benefit of all preceding ancestors of the Royal line.

    Harishchandra was the 28th King of the Solar Dynasty, a Dynasty with many lineages to come afterwards, and many great scions of heroic fame. Scions of lineage of the Ikshavaku clan, and then much later the Raghuvamsa from which we have the glorious history of Lord Rama Who was the 60th King of the Solar Dynasty and verily 32 Kings after Harishchandra.

    This particular Royal line is known as Raghuvamsa which is a lineage of Kings going back to Surya the Sun God or Solar Dynasty. The name “Raghuvamsa” is in respect to the valorous Raja who was named Raghu of the Ikshavaku clan. “Vamsha” or “vamsa” in Sanskrit means “dynasty”, “race” or “family”, “lineage” or “clan”. The Ikshavaku Dynasty records its foundation back to Ikshvaku who was the Grandson of Surya the Sun God. Because of this linage, this Dynasty was also known as Suryavamsa or Solar Dynasty. The Solar Dynasty is renowned with a linage that includes the names of Gods and Kings, Saints and Yogis. This is includes Harishchandra, Lord Rama, Gautama Buddha, several Jain Tirthankaras. It was many Kings after Surya before Raghu came into the world.

    The very name Raghu is related to the Sanskrit term “fast”, and fitting a name it was since this Raja was famous for his skilled abilities behind the chariot. And so famous was his skill behind the chariot that though he was of the Ikshavaku Dynasty, his Dynasty afterwards became known as the Raghuvamsa or from the Royal Line (lineage) of Raghu.

    And what a Royal line it was indeed, for one of the very next Kings after Raghu was the famed Aja, and Aja was the father of one of the most famous Emperors in history, the famed Dasaratha of the Ramayana who was the father of Lord Rama. The fame of the Ramayana is known to the entire world and all the lokas of heavens. So we remember Raghu today as the Great Grandfather of Ramachandra (Lord Rama). We call Lord Rama “Raghava” in honor of this Great Raja.

    Today, there are glorious men of the Rajput clans who live in Rajputana, Punjab and other areas of Mother India, and who declare ancestry back to the Raghuvanshi (vamsa tree) of Lord Rama.

  2. #2
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    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Namaste Shiva Fan,

    Keep in mind, the audience is for a Western audience.
    I wish you to be very successful in spreading the light of Hinduism to all parts of the Bhramaand!
    Anirudh...

  3. #3

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Yes he was.Mahavira was also from Suryavansha Kshatriya lineage.Sad thing is that "scholars" like michael witzel associates SHAKYA with Sakas(Scythians)

    I personally am a Nagavanshi Kshatriya,we traditionally worship serpents and offer them turmeric and other poojas.

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    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Namaste Aryavartian

    Let me give my respects to the Nagavanshi Dynasty of India, it is most ancient indeed, and to Vasuki, Sheshanaga. I recall seeing naga stones of nagas in India. Also thank you for your confirmation of what I have as far as information so far on this one project.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  5. #5

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste Aryavartian

    Let me give my respects to the Nagavanshi Dynasty of India, it is most ancient indeed, and to Vasuki, Sheshanaga. I recall seeing naga stones of nagas in India. Also thank you for your confirmation of what I have as far as information so far on this one project.

    Om Namah Sivaya

    Thank you ShivaFan.Yes it seems that Nagavanshis are quite ancient,they reigned before the Nandas,shortly after the time of Lord Buddha.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishunaga

    Sorry for late reply btw,i was inactive....

  6. #6

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    Yes he was.Mahavira was also from Suryavansha Kshatriya lineage.Sad thing is that "scholars" like michael witzel associates SHAKYA with Sakas(Scythians)

    I personally am a Nagavanshi Kshatriya,we traditionally worship serpents and offer them turmeric and other poojas.
    There is a reason why scholars associate Shakyas with Saka.

    In the Pali texts, There is constant reference to incest and inbreeding(cousin/sibling marriages) of Buddha's clan. For instance , see Dasaratha Jataka. These customes were unknown to Indo Aryans. Infact , Dharmasturas condemn sibling marriage. However , shakyas explain them as the only means to maintain their regal purity .

    Amongst ancient Iranians ,Incest and inbreeding were considered most pious acts


    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...ge-next-of-kin

    Also the Shakyas were known to have confederated with other tribes like Malla , vrji and licchavi. These tribes resided in northwest(Madra) during Panini's time(520 BC) .However , they were to be found in the east by the time pali canon was composed(350 BC) .

    Ambatta sutta provides more clues. Here a Brahmana accuses shakyas of aggression(A saka trait). Ambatta sutta(92) records that Buddha had blue eyes. Hence the insistence of scholars

    BTW , Gautama is named after his mother's clan(Gotama) .This is in keeping with Indian tradition of being named after mother's clan(karna--radheya)

  7. #7

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post

    In the Pali texts, There is constant reference to incest and inbreeding(cousin/sibling marriages) of Buddha's clan. For instance , see Dasaratha Jataka. These customes were unknown to Indo Aryans. Infact , Dharmasturas condemn sibling marriage. However , shakyas explain them as the only means to maintain their regal purity .
    They only did that when they ventured deeper into the Himalayan regions,to maintain their gotra purity.




    Also the Shakyas were known to have confederated with other tribes like Malla , vrji and licchavi. These tribes resided in northwest(Madra) during Panini's time(520 BC) .However , they were to be found in the east by the time pali canon was composed(350 BC) .
    Any source for their association with the Madras?

    Ambatta sutta provides more clues. Here a Brahmana accuses shakyas of aggression(A saka trait).
    It is so because Shakyas started following a Nastika sect.You can see many Brahmins insulting Buddha as well,one even called him as an outcaste.

    Ambatta sutta(92) records that Buddha had blue eyes.
    So what?Blue eyes are not restricted to Scythians.
    Last edited by Aryavartian; 01 January 2014 at 02:19 AM.
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

  8. #8

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Namaste,

    Do we know how much of the the traditions regarding Buddha's physical appearance were oral? Or, when they were formalized/written down?
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 01 January 2014 at 05:30 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post
    They only did that when they ventured deeper into the Himalayan regions,to maintain their gotra purity.

    .
    I don't know of any other Himalayan tribe(such as kashmiras , khasas ,.) which engaged in sibling marriage .If you can cite any , please do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    Any source for their association with the Madras?

    .
    I quote both witzel and panini
    Panini-


    "Vrjimadrakabharyah= he whose wife is from Vrjimadra country ;vrjimadrah gana=the polity of Vrjimadra country" (Ashtadyayi:4.2.131)

    Witzel-

    "Again, PĂĄnini (c. 5th cent. B.C.) still knows of the Vrji (= PĂĄli Vajji)
    as a Panjab group (4.2.131, next to the Madra), probably with a tribal
    organization (gana). The Mallas, too, were still living in the desert of
    Rajasthan at the time of (JB265) and some of them remained there even in
    Alexander's time; they are a rather martial group, according to both JB and Alexander's historians.
    Both the Malla and Vrji apparently immigrated
    into the east only after the end of the Vedic period, but well before the time
    of the Buddha (c. 400 B.C.) This must have been one of the last great
    infiltrations in Vedic times of western peoples into the lower GangĂĄ area"

    The development of vedic canon--michael witzel--page 311

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/canon.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    It is so because Shakyas started following a Nastika sect.You can see many Brahmins insulting Buddha as well,one even called him as an outcaste.

    .
    Really? Which nastika sect did they follow? Please provide your source. In Buddhacharita , Buddha's father suddhodhana performed all the prerequisite yagnas. Buddha underwent upanayana.Their purohita was gautama

    That Buddha's family followed vedic religion is also confirmed by mahavagga (1.245)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryavartian View Post

    So what?Blue eyes are not restricted to Scythians

    .
    I agree. But there are other factors too .The list of 43 omens mentioned in brahmanjali sutta are (almost) identical to 43 omens inscribed by ancient persians .Zoroastrian core principle of Good actions , Good deeds , good thoughts(Yasna haptangaiti 35.2-Around 1200 BCE) has an exact counterpart in Buddhist kaya, vaca citta.(Later 3 vajras) .The round graves which these tribes constructed (discovered at excavations in Lauriya,Nepal) were condemned in Satapatha brahmana 13.8.1.5 as "Asurya"(demonic).These round graves are found in central Asia(Andronovo/saka) and identical to later day stupas.

    There are many more , I can go on and on.

  10. #10

    Re: Was Siddhartha of the Solar Dynasty?

    Namaste Alter ego,


    Quote Originally Posted by Alter ego View Post
    I don't know of any other Himalayan tribe(such as kashmiras , khasas ,.) which engaged in sibling marriage .If you can cite any , please do.
    Possibly the Shakyas were the first to migrate into the Kirata regions.Also the Kashmiris and Kshasas were from northern Himalayas,not the north-eastern part(home of Kiratas).




    I quote both witzel and panini
    Panini-


    "Vrjimadrakabharyah= he whose wife is from Vrjimadra country ;vrjimadrah gana=the polity of Vrjimadra country" (Ashtadyayi:4.2.131)

    Witzel-

    "Again, PĂĄnini (c. 5th cent. B.C.) still knows of the Vrji (= PĂĄli Vajji)
    as a Panjab group (4.2.131, next to the Madra), probably with a tribal
    organization (gana). The Mallas, too, were still living in the desert of
    Rajasthan at the time of (JB265) and some of them remained there even in
    Alexander's time; they are a rather martial group, according to both JB and Alexander's historians.
    Both the Malla and Vrji apparently immigrated
    into the east only after the end of the Vedic period, but well before the time
    of the Buddha (c. 400 B.C.) This must have been one of the last great
    infiltrations in Vedic times of western peoples into the lower GangĂĄ area"

    The development of vedic canon--michael witzel--page 311

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/canon.pdf
    I would be extremely cautious when quoting Prof.Witzel's works.He is well known for misinterpreting Vedic passages to suit his AIT/AMT theory and chronology.See these links :http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...f_M_Witzel.pdf
    http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...WitzelJIES.pdf
    http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/i...enceforAMT.pdf

    Also see Talageri's book for detailed refutation to Witzel's claims.

    Anyway i will discuss your points one by one:


    1) Vrijji is a state(Janapada),NOT a tribe.The the ruling class(Kshatriyas) of Vrijji were the Licchavis.The term Vrijimadra might indicate a hybrid Janapada,like Kuru-Panchalas.It does not mean Licchavis were of Madra stock!

    2)Hes doesn't specify which verse of Jaiminiya Brahmana mentions Mallas.Also the migration can occur from east to west as well.

    3) Lord Buddha at 400 BCE?The recent excavations at Lumbini dates Siddhartha Gautama back to 6th milln BCE,possibly predating Panini.



    Really? Which nastika sect did they follow? Please provide your source. In Buddhacharita , Buddha's father suddhodhana performed all the prerequisite yagnas. Buddha underwent upanayana.Their purohita was gautama

    That Buddha's family followed vedic religion is also confirmed by mahavagga (1.245)
    I meant to say that Sri Buddha himself founded a Nastika sect,revolting against Vedic ritualism prevalent during his time.Having that said,he did not reject the core Vedic concepts.


    I agree. But there are other factors too .The list of 43 omens mentioned in brahmanjali sutta are (almost) identical to 43 omens inscribed by ancient persians .Zoroastrian core principle of Good actions , Good deeds , good thoughts(Yasna haptangaiti 35.2-Around 1200 BCE) has an exact counterpart in Buddhist kaya, vaca citta.(Later 3 vajras) .
    I'm not aware of Brahmanjali sutta,could you please post some links?


    The round graves which these tribes constructed (discovered at excavations in Lauriya,Nepal) were condemned in Satapatha brahmana 13.8.1.5 as "Asurya"(demonic).These round graves are found in central Asia(Andronovo/saka) and identical to later day stupas.
    Satapatha Brahmana speaks of "easterners" building round graves,but it doesn't specify which "easterners" it speaks of.It is possible that SatpBrhm speaks of the eastern part of Vedic homeland i.e Punjab-Haryana region.


    See this message from Witzel,about Nepal graves:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/I...s/topics/13470
    (Click on first message).

    He now regards it as post-Buddhist.

    Also the Stupas have nothing to do with the Kurgans of central Asia,Kurgans are built directly from the ground,like a small hill.While Stupas are constructed like temples with bricks or some other materials.

    There are many more , I can go on and on.
    I can go on as well
    "Only one is the fire,which is inflamed in numerous ways.Only one is the sun, which pervades the whole universe.Only one is the dawn,which illuminates all things. Similarly,all that exists is The One and it has manifested into everything here.”

    ~ Rg Veda 8.58.2

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