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Thread: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

  1. #1

    Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Namaste,

    Firstly, this has been building up for me over many years, and I've gotten what I went after... A liberation by way of philosophy and day-to-day living, and a little karma yoga, and neurosis and comedy, of course... But primarily philosophy.

    Secondly, I have wanted to present a case for Eastern philosophy to the Western "thinking man"; to the man with his chin on his fist, thinking away (in his own lineage of thinking). For myself, I also wanted to put together an analysis on blank paper - with no dependencies, that could stand for itself.

    Thirdly, I have been tinkering away on a project called "The Cooperative Assembly" (or CNA), which is an idea for a sort of next-gen Wikipedia - a landscape of Internet-based informational communities, with many checks and balances. In this idea, a CNA has 3 branches of information review. After branch members approve, the information becomes part of the published product. I wanted to make an administrator's manual for understanding and really clearly defining these branch roles and functions (to overcome disagreement about the same), which created this bit of philosophy. It started with Vedanta! (No doubt 25 years ago)

    For all three; toward personal development, appealing to the Western mind, and defining the branches of the Coop Assembly, here it is, in about 9 pages.

    I would be happy to hear about agreements or dialectics, such as with Dharma Hindu perspectives, or any notes about what is needed. And thank you for your time!

    - MarkMe

    Models of Self, Objectivity and Information (a Coop Assembly page)

  2. #2

    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Now, I'm beginning to think of how far away I may have gotten from Hindu metaphysics over the years.

    Back in 1989, my teacher (Swami) gave me an objective model of perceiver, medium of perception and perceived, which I never forgot. I looked at the metaphysics, with Purusha and Prakriti, etc, and of the duality of the vedanta, with that being the "awareness" and "existence" of this current system, where one was absolute and the other relative. Absolute and relative stuck with me, which I figure to be what I am saying.

    I added a third, which I believe corresponds to aham, but as I have put it, anything representational or imaginary, but not in itself real. This serves the purpose of having a set of 3 with completeness, clear definition and mutual exclusivity, and which jibes with the model of objectivity, above.

    Most distinctly, I am putting "awareness" as an absolute. This will challenge relativism, which says that absolutes cannot be, and it provides an update on the old Descartes position which says that awareness (of thought) is proof of "I", whereas what I am saying is that awareness is not proof of "I", but proof of itself, and not necessarily of an individual I.

    I also have a separate paper about ego, from a couple of years ago, which is made of quite different parts than this one. (Which I intend to revise a bit)

    I was happy to post here, because this is (some of) the perspective I have developed originating in Hindu philosophy, and I think that if it gains acceptance, that it could spur greater interest into Hindu philosophy. The important can-opener to the western philosophical mind as I see it is in the argument for an absolute. With that, a door opens.
    Last edited by MarkMe; 15 January 2013 at 07:10 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Namaste Markme

    Something tells me Kashmir Shaivism is in your future.
    Just be a Hindu.

    I like and dislike or have a response, but for now yes the opportunity is there but you must first understand the infrastructure of cloud computung. You will not led the transformation, it naturally leds itself. I will keep my gut reaction for later, but for now I ask, do not praise SD, instead why not just fully engage it?

    Something tells me ...


    Om Namah Sivaya

  4. #4

    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    I haven't looked at the cloud as of yet, but with a general idea, I think I can see that.

    I have discontinued personal development, because it occurs to me I was born to do this project.

    What is SD?

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    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Namaste Markme

    Opps! bad habit of mine - SD is Sanatana Dharma.

    Perhaps you were "born" for a certain duty due to karma, I am not one to know if so or not. I wish all the best. I am on a long learning curve. A long time ago, in the 1970s, it occurred to me that I had grown to such a level that I just needed to chant the Gayatri Mantra. But then I was so stupid I hurt the feelings of a pure genius and a pure soul by thinking I knew more than a Guru. Then I lost the association of devotees. This loss was so tremendous, that I realized I was the most stupid person in the entire world. I will never chant the Gayatri Mantra out loud again in this life. I have a lot to learn. I hope many devotees are with you on all your endevours. You will find out, everything is possible with them, and almost nothing is possible without them.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  6. #6

    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Namaste ShivaFan,

    I will not forget what you have said.

    If you pleas, what is the nice picture?

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    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

     
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Markme's paper
    Here is another view...

    Pāṇini ( the grammarian) tells us 'put the first letter and the last letter and combine them' . What does this mean ? aiva) + ha (śakti) + ( nara) = ahaṁ अहं = I

    Take the first letter a or anuttara + ha or anāhata + or anusvāra = pratyāhāra प्रत्याहार- the comprehension of a series of letters or roots into one syllable which is aha अहं, which = the re-absorption into ones SELF, Brahman, Wholeness ( pūrṇata).

    Or one can say I am whom
    • Śiva = I
    • Śaivī is śakti or Śrī Devī = am
    • nara = whom, or all existence
    iti śivaṁ


    words

    • Pāṇini's grammar (7th centurt B.C.) is called Astādhyāyī - it is a rule bound description of spoken language (bhasa) and composition ( vaidiki). I have been studing this as of late and consider myself only a student ( śiṣya).
    • pratyāhāra प्रत्याहार- is also a group of letters combined as we did above; the body of text i.e. the comprehension of a series of letters or roots into one syllable;
      • a- we know this as the first letter of the nāgarī alphabet and english alphabet.
      • ha - the thirty-third and last consonant of the nāgarī alphabet in Pāṇini's system;
      • anusvāra अनुस्वार- is the nasal sound which is marked by a dot above the line and belongs to a preceding vowel.
    • anuttara अनुत्तर- Supreme, chief, the best, unsurpassible
    • anāhata अनाहत- unbeaten, complete, intact; this is also considered that which cannot be recited.
    • More on ahaṁ ? see HDF http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3093&highlight=aham+Abhinavagupta
    Last edited by yajvan; 16 January 2013 at 01:09 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8

    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
     

    namast

    Markme's paper
    Here is another view...

    Or one can say I am whom
    • Śiva = I
    • Śaivī is śakti or Śrī Devī = am
    • nara = whom, or all existence
    iti śivaṁ

    Namaste,
    That is very interesting to me, Vajvan. I am quoting the above part, noting the 3 parts of the heart of Shiva, which I think I can translate to the 3 parts of the system I have drawn up, where... The "am" is the means or method, or the "I" in mine, the "whom" here is the existence in mine, and the "I" here is the "A" in mine.

    But most interestingly, is the part about what I call "I", which I think translates most directly into jiva, or some mala part of it. The same little "I" that I have is something I wonder about how to factor in as a very big "I", instead of a child, to be the great parent of the 3. I have not suspected such greatness for "aham", actually. Put another way, my "I" is something I wonder about being the greatest of the 3, which is currently being used on the level of jiva.

    When getting to a non-dual totality perspective, it would be I. But the meaning of I is, I think, non-intuitive. I think it would even be very misleading, particularly to a young seeker, to say that "I" is a thing to find, because the little "I" really needs to be contradicted and destroyed. In fact I am very leery of speaking in such a way, for this reason. Of course, in my model, "I" is very little, and "A" is very big.

    So I will have to make a project out of looking more in-depth at these things. Thank you.

    p.s. My use of "awareness" and "consciousness" is quite different than many readings, where it appears the two are used inversely.
    Last edited by MarkMe; 16 January 2013 at 09:45 PM.

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    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    Namaste,
    That is very interesting to me, Vajvan. I am quoting the above part, noting the 3 parts of the heart of Shiva, which I think I can translate to the 3 parts of the system I have drawn up, where... The "am" is the means or method, or the "I" in mine, the "whom" here is the existence in mine, and the "I" here is the "A" in mine.
    Without getting too convoluted , let me offer this for your consideration...
    • Śiva = I
    • Śaivī is śakti or Śrī Devī = am
    • nara = whom, or all existence
    'I' and 'a' are related. This 'a' is the first sound form we find in saṃskṛtā. This 'a' or 'ā' is non-different from śiva. Some consider it an+uttara - that is, unsuprassable - the same definition as the Supreme.


    This is nara and is non-differnent from the notion of 'me' - the small self, which would be equal to your notion of 'mine'.


    But what of this 'am' you and I mention as the method ? It is the method that 'I' comes to be 'me'... and this 'me' = nara. This nara is another way of saying all of creation. It is though the śakti of śiva that the Supreme is throttled down to become creation and all of the objects one may experience.


    These 3 within kaśmir śaivism is considered para, parāpara & apara


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10

    Re: Appealing to the Western Mind in its Own Terms

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ o
    ~~~~~~

    namast


    Without getting too convoluted , let me offer this for your consideration...
    'I' and 'a' are related. This 'a' is the first sound form we find in saṃskṛtā. This 'a' or 'ā' is non-different from śiva. Some consider it an+uttara - that is, unsuprassable - the same definition as the Supreme.
    Amazing. I Love A. It's the greatest one.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    This is nara and is non-differnent from the notion of 'me' - the small self, which would be equal to your notion of 'mine'.


    But what of this 'am' you and I mention as the method ? It is the method that 'I' comes to be 'me'... and this 'me' = nara. This nara is another way of saying all of creation. It is though the śakti of śiva that the Supreme is throttled down to become creation and all of the objects one may experience.


    These 3 within kaśmir śaivism is considered para, parāpara & apara


    iti śivaṁ
    To me, parāpara is very interesting. It seems that in my way of putting things, this is likeable to the sections, "A, E and the Root of I", and "The I Function". In "The Root of I", I give recognition to a simultaneity of one and many. By the tandem of the two in reality, there will come to be "I", or a capacity for "the many". This is not a sure thing yet. What I did not say was that some evolution would have to take place in order for this underlying capability to actually take place. There would have to be a development in existence capable of facilitating "the I function". (Perhaps parāpara is what I then, in this section, erroneously recollected "aham" to be, by way of calling it "I".)

    In this function, there is a capacity to "take as" by the allegation of "another". That's quite a neat trick. Rather than something being itself, there is something which can be taken as "this or that".

    And I look forward, Yajvan, to learning more about what study has been conducted in this matter.
    Last edited by MarkMe; 17 January 2013 at 12:49 AM.

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