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Thread: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darshanas

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    Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darshanas

    This is my proposal to the absolute vaishnava dvaitin/dualist. Two different and somewhat esoteric revelations in the form of vishwarupa darshanas are to be considered in explaining my theory here. Long before Arjuna was privileged to do so, vishva rupa (universal or cosmic form) was already witnessed by none other than Krishna’s beloved mother Yashoda herself. Albeit a different version of it though. Back when Krishna was a small child and was accused of invading the homes of gopikas looking for butter, exasperated mom on one such longday demanded that he opened his mouth to verify if it was full of butter. When Krishna dutifully obligedand and opened his mouth wide, to her utter dismay yashoda saw in it something celestial in makeup. Innumerable planets, stars and whole galaxies were revolving in his mouth. She, then andthere, realized that he was no ordinary child. Now a legitimate question arises here. Why did the compilers of Bhagavatam took pains and endowed humble mother (meaning, not a yogi or scholar or seeker) with such vision that even great sages and kings were not gifted with?

    In fact on further analysis, when collectively viewed, the two mega forms witnessed by Yashoda and Arjuna appear somewhat different, however they both agree on the larger message of advaita encoded in them for all humanity to decipher and appreciate. It is notable that the two different forms are not identical. The sumtotal of the two visions at two different stages of krishna’s life cements the idea of core advaita philosophy beyond any doubts IMO. The first one draws in the cosmos and Brahman, whereas the second one highlights karma and atma and its transmigration. Arjuna saw the life cycles of scores of humans ending in Krishna’s vishvarupa along with large galactic fires and all. I was trying to convince the vaishnava dvaitins and other dualists to look at advaita favorably, all because Krishna was asserting the same through his episodic and transient celestial transformations. I must say this is not a academic work from me, since there are no references other than bringing in two highly significant events in krishna’s earthly life, one from Bhagavatam the other from Bagavad gita (Mahabharata). The underlying message is that Krishna was there to enlighten everyone about ADVAITA philosophy, weaning them away from adoration of his human avatar.

    Prastana Traya ( Upanishads, Gita and Brahma sutras) are the core texts of Vedanta and as we all know vedanta overwhelmingly preaches advaita doctrine although it doesn’t altogether dismiss dvaita. When two texts (Upanishads and Brahmasutra) are unequivocally advaitic in substance then how is it possible that a 3rd one viewed as supportive of pure dualism, it is clearly debatable. By inference BG also strongly advocates advaita in MY bold opinion. I know there are some holes in my theory, so therefore please criticize without hesitation. I summoned lot of courage to post it in Vaishnava forum, dont be offended. We hindus are argumentative as I understand it, even Adi Shankara had to face very vocal oponents rants with all humility.. Namaste.
    Last edited by charitra; 14 January 2013 at 03:24 PM.

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Dear

    Everyone is entitled to have their opinion and you have your opinion. Thing is, some people spend time and life to understand before they make opinion and also ask tons of questions and give enough time to digest the meanings, put things together with out loosing the meanings!

    Such great works are done by our beloved acharyas and we follow the foot steps of them accepting our limitations and also what we are attracted and convinced to. Two people belief does not have to be same and so why we have multiple vedanta schools and philosophies.

    Vaishnava's do not see any validity of Advaita philosophy (in any form or format) as Vedas, Upanishads and Gita, purana etc. are not conveying any other message other than the Lord and His sentients and insentient. It is not just Dualism ( not just Two but at least Three viz. Ishwara, Jiva and Jada) and there is no possibility of single vastu alone.

    So what are your questions and what are your answers for having Advaita as the Truth! Would you like to elaborate?

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post

    So what are your questions and what are your answers for having Advaita as the Truth! Would you like to elaborate?Hare Krshna!

    What seems to be the underlying metaphysical explanation forKrishna showing His cosmic form to Yashoda, what kind of message humans should receive from it.

    How does one compare and contrast this enlightening chapter with the chapter 11 of BG.

    Merging both darshanas, to me it appears, that through these vishva appearances the larger meaning for humans is that He is the saguna Brahman, no? Only names are different but that conceptually both are similar. If humans enter and exit from his physical entity (transmigration)as in BG Ch11 rupa then it all designed to be just ONE ‘thing’ only and not two or as you highlighted three. How am I wrong. Namaste.

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Namaste.

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Vaishnava's do not see any validity of Advaita philosophy (in any form or format) as Vedas, Upanishads and Gita, purana etc. are not conveying any other message other than the Lord and His sentients and insentient. It is not just Dualism ( not just Two but at least Three viz. Ishwara, Jiva and Jada) and there is no possibility of single vastu alone.
    Forgive my ignorance, but am I to infer from this that Vaishnavas cannot be and/or are not Advaitin; that Vaishnavism is dualist? If my inference is correct, that's a pretty broad statement, yes? As a Vaishnava the closest I come to dualism is Vishistadvaita, and even that I'm not sure about. If my inference is wrong and my ignorance is shining through, please ignore this.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    VishistaAdvaita is not dualism and it also has three Vastu!
    Dualism is just used as an antonym for "Advaitam" but anything that is not "Advaita" is generally called "Dvaitam"!

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Thanks, I think I may have misinterpreted your post. I know Vaishnavism has its duality adherents.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    I tried to follow this question with great curiosity - honestly, I did not understand too much of it, but it seemed to touch on 'Aham Brahmasmi' principle - upon seeing the Vishwaroopa, Yashoda and Arjuna would have realized that they are part and particle of the same truth - that they are one with the Brahman.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post
    In fact on further analysis, when collectively viewed, the two mega forms witnessed by Yashoda and Arjuna appear somewhat different, however they both agree on the larger message of advaita encoded in them for all humanity to decipher and appreciate. It is notable that the two different forms are not identical. The sumtotal of the two visions at two different stages of krishnas life cements the idea of core advaita philosophy beyond any doubts IMO. The first one draws in the cosmos and Brahman, whereas the second one highlights karma and atma and its transmigration. Arjuna saw the life cycles of scores of humans ending in Krishnas vishvarupa along with large galactic fires and all.
    Pranams,

    The above statements do not make any credible argument to the effect that the vishva-rUpa darshanas somehow teach advaita. Bear in mind that in advaita, nothing else is real except brahman. Now, some advaitins will qualify this by saying that the non-real phenomenal existence is only "differently real," and yet others will say that it is neither real nor unreal. However, if by advaita you are meaning the pure advaita of Adi shankara in which brahman only exists and world is mAyA, then you have a problem: What is that "universe" which kRiShNa is showing to yashoda? It is not real, so what is the point of displaying it in His baby mouth? It is just mAyA, right?

    Moreover, in most versions of advaita, brahman is formless and undifferentiated. But is this consistent with the vishva-rUpa that was shown to arjuna? It is not. Because that which was displayed to arjuna was not a formless entity - it was a form of the Lord having countless heads, arms, legs, and divine qualities. So subtle and overwhelming an experience was that vishva-rUpa that kRiShNa had to give arjuna divine eyes to see it. Having infinite limbs and qualities is the opposite of having no form and qualities.

    In summary, there is nothing about these experiences that teach advaita. What they do teach, is that the universe has the Lord as its sustainer, that the universe is pervaded by Him, and its glories and attributes are at best a minute fraction of His countless glories. It is implicitly understood from this that the universe is real, and at the same time not independent of Him.

    I don't know if the OP is using the term "dualist" in the sense of tattvavAdis following shrI madhvAchArya or in the neo-Hindu sense of "anyone who isn't an advaitin." However, I don't see any real problem here with the idea of Lord who supports and pervades the creation, yet transcends it - these are core teachings of the upaniShads and have nothing to do with advaita.

    The underlying message is that Krishna was there to enlighten everyone about ADVAITA philosophy, weaning them away from adoration of his human avatar.
    This is an illogical position to take, for reasons already stated above, as well as for one more obvious one: where in the gItA does kRiShNa explain that ultimate realization means recognition of the complete lack of difference between them? Where does arjuna supposedly realize that he is the same as kRiShNa? The gItA is the distilled wisdom of the upaniShads, a sort of Cliff's Notes of the upaniShads, so to speak, so those kinds of important teachings would have been spelled out, if they are indeed valid understanding of the shruti. But they are not mentioned, and so the advaitin understanding rests on indirect and very oblique interpretations of the gItA, just as it does on indirect and oblique interpretations of the upaniShads.

    Prastana Traya ( Upanishads, Gita and Brahma sutras) are the core texts of Vedanta and as we all know vedanta overwhelmingly preaches advaita doctrine although it doesnt altogether dismiss dvaita.
    This is again, an illogical statement. The upaniShads cannot preach both advaita and dvaita because these two systems are fundamentally opposed to each other. Perhaps what you meant to say is that they teach difference and non-difference, in which case any understanding that fails to reconcile both concepts cannot be a valid explanation of the shAstra.

    When two texts (Upanishads and Brahmasutra) are unequivocally advaitic in substance then how is it possible that
    Who said that upaniShads and brahma-sUtra are "unequivocally advaitic?"

    regards
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra View Post

    Prastana Traya ( Upanishads, Gita and Brahma sutras) are the core texts of Vedanta and as we all know vedanta overwhelmingly preaches advaita doctrine although it doesnt altogether dismiss dvaita. When two texts (Upanishads and Brahmasutra) are unequivocally advaitic in substance then how is it possible that a 3rd one viewed as supportive of pure dualism, it is clearly debatable.
    While a case might be built that the upanishads teach advaita vedanta, the same cannot be said for the brahma sutras and bhagavad gita.

    Any neutral scholar will tell you that Shankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutra is a forced and oblique interpretation which breaks traditional rules of interpretation of sutras.
    See for example George Thibaut's comparison of Sankara's commentary to Ramanuja's.
    Infact the Brahma Sutras say-

    anupapattestu na shArIraH- Brahman is not the same as the embodied individual, because such identity s impossible

    bhedavyapadeshAt.h - the difference [of Brahman and individual] is taught
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


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    Re: Is it Advaita philosophy thats the underlying deeper message of vishvarupa darsha

    Let's say later Monism (which doesn't take world and attributes of supreme to be unreal) is not contradictory to Bhagvat Gita, but Sankara's Advaita Vendanta and some of its conclusions are in direct contradiction to teachings of Gita, IMHO. But I can't say Vaishnavism has done any more justice to Gita than Sankara Advaita.
    Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent Of everything you think, And of everything you do, Is for yourself And there isn't one

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