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Thread: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

  1. #21
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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Thanks. However, Sandhi (means "joining") is always of word with another word, as far as I know. However, there may be some exceptions. I will also look up for any such rule.

    OM
    It also means joining of letters. Traditionally in devanagari all words within a sentence were written together. Only later did people start to write words separate from each other (possibly because of foreign influence), but the sandhi rules still apply.

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Can you do the sandhi-vicchheda of Brahmano ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    According to the declension table from the shabdarupavali which I have attached in the image, the singular nominative (prathamA) form of brahman is brahmA.
    How ? Atmaa is in its original form in Prathama singular number and therefore, Brahman too should be like that. Why should it change its form to BrahmA violating the form ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    brahmaNaH + hi = brahmaNo hi

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    How ? Atmaa is in its original form in Prathama singular number and therefore, Brahman too should be like that. Why should it change its form to BrahmA violating the form ?
    I think you are confusing the prathamA singular form with the stem. These are not the same thing, but sometimes they are similar. The stem is Atman and the ekavachana prathamA form is AtmA.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 22 January 2013 at 01:09 AM.

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    I have to attend some urgent work. See you after some time. This has been fruitful discussion so far.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    brahmaNaH + hi = brahmaNo hi
    Oh ! Then Brahmano hi should have been joined together as Brahmanohi and not written as Brahmano hi.

    This is no sandhi but anyway ... nothing more to add.

    OM
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  7. #27
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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Oh ! Then Brahmano hi should have been joined together as Brahmanohi and not written as Brahmano hi.

    This is no sandhi but anyway ... nothing more to add.
    Like mentioned before, traditionally all words were written and pronounced together in one sentence. Sandhi rules can apply internally within a word when letters change because of other letters within a word and it can change externally, because of letters that follow/ precede from another word.

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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    Like mentioned before, traditionally all words were written and pronounced together in one sentence.
    Even if this is accepted where I have no proof to rely upon but you are talking about joining the words together. I am talking about keeping the words separate after sandhi which is not sandhi at all.

    Sandhi rules can apply internally within a word when letters change because of other letters within a word and it can change externally, because of letters that follow/ precede from another word.
    See, sandhi rules can apply only when two words (even one letter-word) create a third word by joining together. It cannot happen that a word is separate and another word too is separate and they keep remaining separate after sandhi. What you are saying about internal sandhi (I am not aware of this terminology being used in Sanskrit Grammar that I have read)... is basically two-words joining where one word is some pratyaya, Upsarga or some vibhakti etc. which joins with the another word to create the "vikaar" in sandhi. "Vikaar" cannot arise when the words are kept separate. In the verse, "Brahman" and "hi" are two different words and if "Brahman" word is changing its form due to sandhi then both should create a new word combining together. Here there is no such combination and yet the "vikaar" of Brahman changing to Brahmano has taken place.

    If there is any other rule known to you, please share.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #29
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    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    I got this table after a little search on internet :

    Declension table of brahman

    *********** Singular********Dual********Plural

    Nominative brahma brahmaṇī brahmāṇī
    Vocative brahma brahmaṇī brahmāṇī
    Accusative brahma brahmaṇī brahmāṇī
    Instrumental brahmaṇā brahmabhyām brahmabhiḥ
    Dative brahmaṇe brahmabhyām brahmabhyaḥ
    Ablative brahmaṇaḥ brahmabhyām brahmabhyaḥ
    Genitive brahmaṇaḥ brahmaṇoḥ brahmaṇām
    Locative brahmaṇi brahmaṇoḥ brahmasu

    So, the PrathamA, singular number of Brahman is Brahma and not Brahmaa/BrahmA. Normally, the stem is as near the PrathmA singular number as is used in normal usage. Like AtmA is used as it is in language and hardly anyone uses it as Atman or Atma.

    Anyway, it was not our part of discussion. I am unable to see how sandhi can occur without words joining together.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #30

    Re: The correct meaning of verse 14.27

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Phil,

    Thanks for correction. It is indeed sixth vibhakti and not seventh.
    However, I don't find your arguments convincing for the following reasons :

    a) Please give proof why Brahman should be treated as Neuter gender ? Any PramANa from any authentic book will do. In my opinion, it should be treated as Masculine gender. With Masculine gender ending with "a" sound at the end, it should follow the forms of "Gaja", Baalaka" etc.

    b) Even if Brahman is to be treated as Neuter Gender, which It should not be, the form will still be "BrahmaNasya" for the sixth vibhakti as then it would follow the form of Vana (forest) as form of words ending with "a" sound.

    This video gives forms of Vana which is a neuter gender ending in "an" sound. However, let me clarify that I have not seen any noun ending with "an" sound being treated differently than nouns with "a" sound. You may be able to clarify this point. :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPshFFIbhQU

    PS : Please read the footnote below the video : All अकारान्त (words ending with letter अ) नपुन्सकलिङग् (neuter gender) noun words are declined similar to वन (Van). So, once you learn the vibhakti (declension) of वन (Van), you have learnt the declensions of all the अकारान्त (words ending with letter अ) नपुन्सकलिङग् (neuter gender) noun words. That means, you know how to use all अकारान्त नपुन्सकलिङग् noun words in correct grammatical manner. It is so easy.

    Are you sure, Brahmana in sixth vibhakti should be read as "Brahmanas" ? Can you give any proof ?

    c) Please note that BrahmaNo has been used in the verse without any sandhi. There are other verses too in BG where it has been used independently. Therefore, can you tell us how this logic of sandhi fits in here ?

    OM
    Stems ending in "-a" are not declined the same as stems ending in "-an." Look at any standard Sanskrit textbook for the proof you desire. Thus, "devasya" is a legitimate Sanskrit construction but "brahamaNasya" is not. They follow different declension paradigms. "deva" and "ashva" follow the same declension paradigm, but words like "brahman" and "Atman" follow a different one.

    Because of sandhi rules, "brahmaNas" or "brahmaNaH" (the genitive/sixth vibhakti of "brahman") became "brahmaNo" before "hi." Again, check any standard Sanskrit text.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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