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Thread: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

  1. #41

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    *********************************************
    when even Onlooker wasn't spared
    *********************************************
    Onlooker was agitated, anguished. A voice raised upwards from the depths of his very soul.
    "Why didn't, Aditi, my beloved, Mother, you make me realise all this all these thousands of years?"

    Aditi reveals herself, reveals in a form of Mother.

    Aditi: did you even utter my name, once, in all these millennia?
    Onlooker: no, Mother, I didn't. I am sorry.
    Aditi: or, did you do the continuous Yagna of mighty Agni?
    Onlooker: neither, Mother.
    Aditi ( to herself): so Agni is unlit. unlit within.

    Aditi: but, then, sure you did worship some of the Gods of Dyava-Prithivi?
    Onlooker: I don't know anything about Dyava-Prithivi, Mother.
    Aditi ( mumbles): ok. let us get to the point.

    Aditi: do you offer Yagna to Bhag?
    Onlooker: no, Mother. (Yagna, ritual??)
    Aditi: do you offer Yagna to Varuna?
    Onlooker: no, Mother. (Water God??)
    Aditi: do you offer Yagna to Vayu?
    Onlooker: no, Mother. (Wind??)

    Aditi: oh me! How did you then defend your land, life and honour?
    Onlooker: I didn't. Mother. (breaks down).
    (pause)
    Onlooker: but times have changed Mother. Now, in the age of Technology, children of Bharati, resourceful, talented, sure do retain an edge over Asuric forces.
    Aditi: do you, then, offer Yagna to Indra?
    Onlooker: no, Mother. (the pervert demi God??)
    Aditi: do you offer worship to Mitra?
    Onlooker: no, Mother. (Mitra devo bhavah??)
    Aditi: do you offer Yagna to Marut?
    Onlooker: no, Mother.
    Aditi: without a clear intellect, an aesthetic depth, or an innate character, where do you stand? Does all this sound to you as some alien language? This Sanatana Dharma? What have you been upto? Forget it. Forget everything. Just tell me one thing- did you pray to Asvini Kumar?

    Onlooker: no, Mother, no. I have no idea who the Asvini Kumar is. All that I cared about was Moksha, Nirvana, Liberation. Or that is what I was told about. Oh, I am so confused! Oh, all this Moksha baggage, and with that a life lived of Dasyu, even death doesn't liberate.

    Aditi: wake up. This the last call.
    Aditi ( mumbles): teach Moksha to enemies. (goes)
    What in the world are you talking about?

  2. #42

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crane-Foot King View Post
    What in the world are you talking about?
    Onlooker was unwell. He started vomiting. Vomiting the Truth, literally, couldn't hold it back now.

    "Can you see me?"
    Onlooker: who said that?
    "Who am I. Speak."
    Onlooker: nAsatyA!

    Onlooker: Nasatya! My Saviour!
    Onlooker: Asvini Kumar!
    (falls at Nasatya's feet)

    Asvini Kumar, as a friend would, embraced Onlooker!
    Onlooker: I am saved!
    Onlooker: you are the Nasatya, slayer of Asat. You are the Only God, were there any. You are the Only Way. You, Asvini Kumar, alone have the power to connect Prithvi to Dyo and even more, to make Dyava-Prithvi complete. You alone, Lord of Effort, of Sacrifice, of Yagna, have the power to bring Immortality on Earth.
    Asvini Kumar: yes. I am Immortality. Can you see, now, why it is called Sanatana, Immortal, Dharma?
    Onlooker: yes, Nasatya. I see now. It is not because Dharma has always been there or will always be there (that is not true, and not the meaning of Immortality). It is because, you, Nasatya, established this Dharma here on Earth.
    Asvini Kumar: oh! Where? Under what name?
    Onlooker (takes breathe): it was under the name of Murugan, Kartikeya, The Lord of Immortality, that you established Dharma. You were also called by your very own, as Tamil Kadavul, the One God of Tamils. Oh yes, now I remember, it was the Land of Tamils.

    Asvini Kumar: know that to be the Home.
    Asvini Kumar: Homeland. the net-giver. Pilgrimage. Even Gods owe that land. That is why Rama had to incarnate, when that Pani specimen, Ravana became irresistible.
    Onlooker: tell me about your other Avatars, Nasatya.
    Asvini Kumar: Hanuman. That Lord of Immortality.
    Onlooker: indeed, Nasatya, without Hanuman who is the God before all Gods, the most worshipped, there would be no Sanatana Dharma in the expanses of Bharati.

    Asvini Kumar: Bharati. The net-giver. Pilgrimage.
    Onlooker: Nasatya, you incarnated as Christ, too!
    Asvini Kumar (laughs merrily): the march of Sanatana Dharma!

    Onlooker: Bharati is in great distress, again. An ugly mix of Dasyus, Vrtras, Valas, and Panis inhabit that land. Now that I am awake, what should I do Nasatya?

    Asvini Kumar: sing my songs. tell my story. tell Rig-Veda!

    **********
    (Ends).
    **********

  3. #43
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    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Onlooker was unwell. He started vomiting. Vomiting the Truth, literally, couldn't hold it back now.

    "Can you see me?"
    Onlooker: who said that?
    "Who am I. Speak."
    Onlooker: nAsatyA!

    Onlooker: Nasatya! My Saviour!
    Onlooker: Asvini Kumar!
    (falls at Nasatya's feet)

    Asvini Kumar, as a friend would, embraced Onlooker!
    Onlooker: I am saved!
    Onlooker: you are the Nasatya, slayer of Asat. You are the Only God, were there any. You are the Only Way. You, Asvini Kumar, alone have the power to connect Prithvi to Dyo and even more, to make Dyava-Prithvi complete. You alone, Lord of Effort, of Sacrifice, of Yagna, have the power to bring Immortality on Earth.
    Asvini Kumar: yes. I am Immortality. Can you see, now, why it is called Sanatana, Immortal, Dharma?
    Onlooker: yes, Nasatya. I see now. It is not because Dharma has always been there or will always be there (that is not true, and not the meaning of Immortality). It is because, you, Nasatya, established this Dharma here on Earth.
    Asvini Kumar: oh! Where? Under what name?
    Onlooker (takes breathe): it was under the name of Murugan, Kartikeya, The Lord of Immortality, that you established Dharma. You were also called by your very own, as Tamil Kadavul, the One God of Tamils. Oh yes, now I remember, it was the Land of Tamils.

    Asvini Kumar: know that to be the Home.
    Asvini Kumar: Homeland. the net-giver. Pilgrimage. Even Gods owe that land. That is why Rama had to incarnate, when that Pani specimen, Ravana became irresistible.
    Onlooker: tell me about your other Avatars, Nasatya.
    Asvini Kumar: Hanuman. That Lord of Immortality.
    Onlooker: indeed, Nasatya, without Hanuman who is the God before all Gods, the most worshipped, there would be no Sanatana Dharma in the expanses of Bharati.

    Asvini Kumar: Bharati. The net-giver. Pilgrimage.
    Onlooker: Nasatya, you incarnated as Christ, too!
    Asvini Kumar (laughs merrily): the march of Sanatana Dharma!

    Onlooker: Bharati is in great distress, again. An ugly mix of Dasyus, Vrtras, Valas, and Panis inhabit that land. Now that I am awake, what should I do Nasatya?

    Asvini Kumar: sing my songs. tell my story. tell Rig-Veda!

    **********
    (Ends).
    **********
    Can you explain what this means?

  4. #44

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theist View Post
    Can you explain what this means?
    Dear Theist
    Hello and welcome!

    Kindly visit this thread: Truth...possible? before reading this.
    Now, Earth, or Prithvi, is composed of satva, tam and raj, corresponding to Truth, Love, and Beauty, respectively. Prithvi, however, doesn't mean earth the planet.
    Presiding Gods of satva, tam, and raj are: Vayu, Bhag, and Varuna. The material world that we live in is Bhag's world. Matter, space and time- are all included in Bhag's Virat form. Varuna is the "Life-world" and Vayu is the "Vital" world.

    Similarly, in Dyo (Heaven), Indra, Marut (Parjanya) and Mitra correspond to Truth, Love and Beauty. Asvini Kumar is the "connection" between Dyo and Prithvi. He is in fact a pair of Gods: one is Marut-like, and other is Vayu-like. He is responsible for communication between Dyo and Prithvi, that is, the rise of sacrifice from Prithvi, and the rushing-in of Soma-juice from Dyo.

    This communication results in "widening" of Prithvi, also seen as setting in of "Immortality". With further evolution, Soma-juice keeps coming in from realms farther of even Dyo, but still, the God who evolves Prithvi is Asvini Kumar only.

    This is the dry theory, in a nutshell IMHO. According to it, for instance, attaining a God in realm C means attaining all Gods in realms B and A prior to that. Jumping from A to C isn't "allowed". It suggests that Moksha has to mean Evolution, if it has to mean anything. "Jumping" has wrongly come to imply that a God in D is "better" than a God in, say, B. Simply because D > B in the alphabetic order. The result is neglecting of A and B, with the "customers" of the religion not being able to move anywhere from A, in real life or after-life, despite high talk and tall ideals.

    To quote an esteemed HDF member: (this thread)
    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste

    I am a simple person, I do not know anything. I have a question, since I am not understanding this thread, as if some are having a problem back and forth even with each other. My question is, is "Realization of Supreme Brahman" and "Brahman" the same thing?

    And is revealing the Supreme, and the Supreme, the Same?

  5. #45

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Nearing the end of my adventure at HDF, I will be posting exclusively in this thread. For I consider this thread to be my best contribution here, amidst attempts at tarka vitarka elsewhere.


    Immortality is attained, when, and only when, Lord Vayu extends his Kingdom unto Brahman, from both Northern and Southern route. When one chants "Aum", he/she is trying to do exactly the same thing, though in a ritualistic manner.

    I want to ask Adi Shankaracharya here: when you say Indra or Vayu is < Brahman, surely you must be knowing the essence of Indra and Vayu? So why don't you enlighten me first about Indra and Vayu?
    And what could be a better way than explaining in detail, word for word, the beautiful ricas written in Veda, of Indra and Vayu?

    But, dear Shankaracharya, you will not do so, because you don't know. If you don't know Indra and Vayu, then you don't know Brahman also. Period.

    And those, surely in majority here, who at the drop of hat say *my teacher says so*, show me some realisation.
    Mental slavery is not Bhakti. Without Bhakti there is zero realisation. Immensity of garbage called *knowledge* is nothing but a monstrous desert which absorbs any rain that comes by, greedily, but doesn't produce anything, any life, back.

    Oh, I forgot, Dasyu, the faceless, doesn't sacrifice!
    The ship sinks, yet everybody is happy!



    (N.B. Satay, I know it is tough publishing this, but then, it was even more so, writing )

  6. #46

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    From equating a particular Deity to Brahman, a deep problem that can genuinely claim roots in some Upanishadic literature but which I think has been satisfactorily solved by HDF members, we have moved on to another one: How come Brahman, who is understood via "this is not that, that is not that", turned out, historically, to be "this is that, that is also that", i.e., "Brahman is everything"?

    Kind of replaced Aditi? With even that demon (thousand heads, thous...) Purusha left high and dry?

    If there was a malintent behind the invention of Purusha, the transformation of Brahman as Aditi on the other hand seems to me driven by the good intention of the Vedantist to restore the unity of Hinduism.

    This is an example of what happens when words in our dictionary die out (as in this case, Aditi). Subsequently, the culture of ideas becomes poorer. Ṛta, Nasatya, gau, parvat, soma pavamana, jataveda, asur, apamnapat- the list is unending; one shudders at the ramifications.

    A lost paradise, and chaos looming large, the Upanishads chartered a particular path, which was though incidental, for while there is a natural way of evolution, whimsical devolution takes any road. Hinduism largely survived, outside its texts, in its people as an unwritten code. When a sceptical Hindu says "Veda is a creation of Man", he fails to see that the words of Veda have become Man - he himself more than anyone else.


    All said and written, there remains, yet, in the mind the all-important question: "But where is the magic formula of the Ṛsis?"
    Last edited by satay; 27 February 2013 at 09:27 AM.

  7. #47

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    My last post here at HDF, so here is my own little summary of the Veda, which I think could be of some interest to HDF members, and the readers alike.

    (A) REALMS

    1) (finite) Realm: Prithivi/Earth
    Presiding God: Pushan
    Constituting Gods: Vayu, Bhag, Varuna

    2) (finite) Realm: Dyo/Svar/Heaven
    Presiding God: Soma
    Constituting Gods: Indra, Parjanya (Marut), Mitra

    3) (infinite) Realm: Antariksha/ Vyom/ Apah
    Presiding God: Savitr/ Mahi
    Constituting Gods: Sarasvati, Ila (Prishni), Dakshina

    4) (infinite) Realm: Samudra
    Presiding God: Brahmanaspati
    Constituting Gods: Brahman, Rudra, Daksha

    (B) CONNECTING GODS

    1) Prithvi and Dyo
    Connecting God: Asvini Kumar
    Breakup: Usha (Vayu-like), Ratri/Nakta (Parjanya-like)

    2) Dyo and Antariksha
    Connecting God: Surya
    Breakup: Bharata (Indra-like), Bharati (Ila-like)

    3) Antariksha and Samudra
    Connecting God: Yama
    Breakup: Sarama (Sarasvati-like), Tvashta (Rudra-like)

    4) Samudra and Prithvi
    Connecting God: Aryaman
    Breakup: Vidhata (Brahman-like), Dhata (Bhag-like)

    (C) COMPOSITE GODS

    1) Prithvi and Parjanya
    God: Marut gana
    Number: 5 Maruts
    Breakup: 3 of Prithvi ( Vayu, Bhag, Varuna), 1 Parjanya, and these 4 combined as one.

    2) Dyava-Prithvi and Surya
    God: Agni
    Number: 8 Vasus
    Breakup: 3+3 of Dyava-Prithvi, 1 Surya, and these 7 combined as one.

    3) Visva (Antariksha-Dyava-Prithvi) and Rudra
    God: Rudra ( Shiva)
    Number: 11 Rudras
    Breakup: 3+3+3 of Visva, 1 Rudra, and these 10 combined as one.

    4) Samudra-Antariksha-Dyava-Prithvi
    God: Aditi
    Number: 12 Adityas
    Breakup: 3+3+3+3 of all realms.

    (D) MISCELLANY

    1) God Incarnate
    Vishnu: Visva + Daksha

    2) Brahma:
    Brahman + Visva (Bhag onwards)

    3) Synonyms: (gau, vac, Aditya), (parvat, asva, connection/barrier between realms)

    4) Agni's triple birth:
    1st in Aryaman's place
    2nd in Asvini Kumar's place
    3rd in Surya's place.

    5) Virat form of an Aditya:
    a) when the Aditya expands in his realm only: threefold expansion.
    b) when the Aditya expands, shows Aditi: 12-fold expansion.
    c) total number of gods: 12X12 = 144. if symmetry taken, 144/2 = 72.
    Considering the usual 3-fold expansion, 12X3 = 36
    But since Brahman is not spoken of, it is 11X3 = 33.



    Thanks, for kindness, openness & warmth

    Love, and best wishes to all

    Kalicharan Tuvij.28.02.2013

  8. #48
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    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crane-Foot King View Post
    to Shaivites would Vishnu and Durga be mortal, and to Shaktist would Vishnu and Shiva be mortal?
    Hi Crane Foot King,
    I have only studied the non-dual schools of Shaivism, so I can't answer that specific question. Within the doctrine of Spanda, the supreme state is Shiva - beyond time, space and attributes, rather like Brahman.
    Shakti is the volitional energy of Shiva - literally time and space and all that fills it. Not separate but part of the whole.

    In this scenario, there is constant change and movement underpinned by the unchanging. Mortality and immortality are labels for a process without beginning or end. When Shakti inverts, she returns to her lord like a river flowing into the ocean.

    All the above is to be understood as consciousness - its expansion and contraction.

    Like you, my base is Buddhist but I find myself drawn to the experiential aspects of monist teachings. The key thing is to not substitute one set of labels with another but to seek the truth within our own samhadi.

  9. #49

    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Hi Crane Foot King,
    I have only studied the non-dual schools of Shaivism, so I can't answer that specific question. Within the doctrine of Spanda, the supreme state is Shiva - beyond time, space and attributes, rather like Brahman.
    Shakti is the volitional energy of Shiva - literally time and space and all that fills it. Not separate but part of the whole.

    In this scenario, there is constant change and movement underpinned by the unchanging. Mortality and immortality are labels for a process without beginning or end. When Shakti inverts, she returns to her lord like a river flowing into the ocean.

    All the above is to be understood as consciousness - its expansion and contraction.

    Like you, my base is Buddhist but I find myself drawn to the experiential aspects of monist teachings. The key thing is to not substitute one set of labels with another but to seek the truth within our own samhadi.
    I thought I was the only one.

  10. #50
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    Re: Are gods mortal in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crane-Foot King View Post
    I thought I was the only one.
    Namaste. No, you are far from being 'the only one'.

    My background is also in Buddhism and Advaita Shaivism, so I can only answer the question from that viewpoint as well.

    In regards to that, and to the topic, all Gods are 'mortal' in that their Rupa and Lilas are still within the boundaries of material existence, no matter what the timespan is.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

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