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Thread: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

  1. #1

    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

    Namaste and praNAm to all

    The statements below are open to discussion. Please feel free to jump in and participate anytime.

    1. Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA is the AtmA in all sentient beings as well as beginning middle and end of creation/universe. BG 10.20

    2. Shri KRshNa PramAtmA is omnipresent inside and outside all pervading like the sky. BG 13.16

    3. Jiva is an aMsha (part) of Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA. BG 15.7

    In chapter 2 KRshNa says AtmA cannot be cut, torn, burnt...
    So what does "a part of Me" mean ? For the moment we say "like a ray of the Sun." "Sky in the pot" is also fine.

    However, there is more to this than just "ray of the Sun." It has more to do with the inseperableness of Purusha from His Pure ParA-PrakRti which is eternal like Him. As we shall see in the next key verses.

    4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5

    to be continued...

    _/\_
    Last edited by smaranam; 24 January 2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: parA not aparA; also added BG 13.16
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #2

    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5
    Several things about BG 7.5
    (i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
    There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.

    (ii) In the next verse, BG 7.6 He shows that He is the source and cause of these TWO prakRtis.

    So jiva is prakRti ?? Then what is all the meditation about "I am AtmA" "I am That" ?

    !! What really happens is that the pure subtle marginal energy called jiva
    (marginal because it has the tendency to get free from or be bound to saMsAr), as a seeker of liberation / pure transcendental service, becomes
    either

    A] aligned with [param]AtmA - the nirAkAr aspect (temporarily or permanently) - this is dhyAn yog and nirvikalpa samAdhi and the saMskRt word leen is perfect in this case.
    In Hindi : ParamAtmA me leen honA.
    Here the jiva is lost deep into paramAtmA's arms Who is cradling the jiva.
    The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole. This is what we call "being One with or merging with the [param]AtmA"

    OR

    B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA (temporarily or permanently). This is also alignment (paramAtmA me leen hona) in one sense, except the jiva is actively interacting with BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

    In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.

    What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished? Several verses, but for now, BG 15.16,17,18 as seen shortly.

    5. Before going over to BG 15.16,17,18, let us look at a few other points.

    (i) AtmA does not act ,
    (ii) PrakRti is the doer
    (iii) but jiva should not think she is the doer - that would be ignorance

    - BG 5.9 BG 3.27

    What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA).

    When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

    Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ).

    Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.


    In the next posts :

    6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?
    7. Which words of Shri KRshNa give us a clue to either the jiva's identity, individuality or eternity or the lack of it?

    praNAm _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    Last edited by smaranam; 03 February 2013 at 06:36 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  3. #3

    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

    NOTES:

    * Shri KRshNa uses the word AtmA for Himself, and we understand that as ParamAtmA, the all-pervading omniscient omnipotent Lord.

    * Translators, AchArya, have used the term jivAtmA or AtmA for the individual soul although this exact term is not in the Gita. That is because, while the jiva is parA prakRti (higher energy) of the Supreme Lord, it is the 'sva' or 'Atman' or the 'self' of the individual. The highest AtmA is called paramAtmA in that case, to distinguish.

    *EDIT 06/05* The word kshetrajn~a refers to [param]AtmA because He is the knower, ruler and controller of the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13].

    * The abheda (oneness) messages in VedAnta shruti (the heard) have a very beautiful and noble intention of Atma-bhAv towards all. The jiva prakRti is the Lord's own prakRti, hence in its purest state it is said to be Brahman because it is perfectly aligned with Brahman. This is how jiva = Brahman.

    * The intimate relationship between jiva and Brahman (which the Lord always knew but the jiva realized in her purest state owing to bhakti) makes Brahman insist "You and I are One, there is no distance between Us" "I am the voice of your heart" "When you speak it is Me speaking" -- This is the result of ananya bhakti only - marching in step with the Supreme Lord. The jiva may continue to serve Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn.

    This will not happen if/as long as the jiva is engrossed in material pursuits. Bhagvan will never impose Himself on a jiva who wants to swim in the world independant of Him.

    * When jiva lives in nirvikalpa samadhi thru nirAkAr sadhana (spiritual practice seeking the formless) it has no consciousness of its seperate existence, merely awareness of Brahman. This is how the akshar (imperishable) parA (higher) prakRti (nature & energy) of the Supreme Brahman attains Brahman. This cannot be acheived without ananya bhakti (one-pointed devotion) to the Supreme Bhagvan and His Grace.

    * So, questions like "does the Self-realized become omniscient or have other siddhis" are not relevant here, because it is not the nature of 'ananya bhakti' to ask such questions. Bestowing a siddhi completely depends on the Will of the Supreme Lord, Who is the one bestowing. However, desires and expectations are an obstacle to liberation and we are told not to run after or get carried away by siddhis as ahaMkaar can manifest itself and be an obstacle.

    When KRshNa ate a mouthful of the flat rice (poha) that Sudama brought with love, but was shy to offer, KRshNa was so overwhelmed with love that He showered wealth and prosperity on Sudama, but started giving him the trailokya (the three worlds) when RukmiNi who is Lakshmi Devi, stopped Him (just in time). Sudama had children, lived in extreme poverty, yet he did not utter a word to ask KRshNa for anything. Such is bhakti.


    _/\_

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||
    Last edited by smaranam; 09 June 2013 at 05:32 AM. Reason: point regarding kshetrajna edited - [param]AtmA is kshetrajna
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #4
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    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

    Namaste and praNAm to all

    The statements below are open to discussion. Please feel free to jump in and participate anytime.

    1. Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA is the AtmA in all sentient beings as well as beginning middle and end of creation/universe. BG 10.20

    2. Shri KRshNa PramAtmA is omnipresent inside and outside all pervading like the sky. BG 13.16

    3. Jiva is an aMsha (part) of Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA. BG 15.7

    In chapter 2 KRshNa says AtmA cannot be cut, torn, burnt...
    So what does "a part of Me" mean ? For the moment we say "like a ray of the Sun." "Sky in the pot" is also fine.

    However, there is more to this than just "ray of the Sun." It has more to do with the inseperableness of Purusha from His Pure ParA-PrakRti which is eternal like Him. As we shall see in the next key verses.

    4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5

    to be continued...

    _/\_
    Namaste,

    I will try to answer your question.

    ----

    This will be my personal opinion and since I ma practicing Advaita, they will have Advaita Tinge. I have not read shastras from other stand point.

    ----

    Bhagavad Gita is the essence of Upanishads or vedanta. Ved-anta means end part of vedas, which contains essence of vedas. Gita is the essence of Upanishads.

    So Bhagavan is the one who is speaking of Nirakara Brahman and representing Brahman in Jnana marg. Bhagavan is also representing all Gods with form, as the name of Gita is not Krushna Gita and except last verse it says, Shri Bhagavan-uvacha and not Shri Krushna-uvacha.

    But it was Krushna who was saying, so you can take bhagavan as Krushna (personal deity) or Krushna Tatva (Brahman). Gita covers all paths and so it has a special place in our shastras and Krushna is called Jagad Guru.

    Srimad Bhagavad is another issue and may contain Tatva Jnana along with Bhakti rasa.
    ----

    There are two analogies (nyaya) in shastras that I know

    1. Truna-Jantu Nyaya (Caterpillar law)

    Caterpillar is some 16 legs. So when it wants to move from one branch to another, it will branch fetch hold of another branch and grab it with it's front legs and only after fetching it, it leave older branch so shift to new branch.

    This can be interpreted like, at the time of death, predominant desires decide our future birth and only when the decision is made new body is given to soul.


    2. Keet-Bramar Nyaya.

    keet is an insect which Bhamari catches and cages inside mud with holes to breath and feed and to bite. After being trapped, that insect (sorry I do not know english name) constantly thinks of bhamri that it will come and bite it. Finally it becomes bhamri.

    So by thinking of brahman, one becomes brahman.

    There is another analogy (vAda),

    Snake-rope analogy (rajju-sarp vAda)

    Entire advaita can be explained by rajju-sarp vada, specially some statements by Bhagavan Krushna.

    Imagine that you are entering dark room and see a snake. so either you try to run away or you try to catch it. In the process you hit a light switch. The moment you switch on the light, you realize that it i just a rope. Snake was an illusion. Reality is rope.

    Now, Snake is maya, and rope is Brahman upon which Snake (Maya) is super imposed.


    Keeping this in mind, lets consider some statements (please do not ask the exact verse. I do not remember ):

    1. I am inside everything and everything is inside me
    2. I am inside everything, but nothing i inside me.
    3. Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything.

    Lets take statement no 1

    1. I am inside everything (Maya) and everything is inside me

    Wherever there is snake there is rope and wherever there is rope, there is snake. You do not see half rope-half snake either in darkness or in light. It's all or none theory. Either you see Snake (and all in illusion) or you see Rope (and rise above illusion).

    2. I am inside everything, but nothing i inside me.

    Wherever there was Snake, there was rope. Actually it was only rope. You cannot say, that snake is rope, but you can say that rope is disguised as snake. Rope is AdhAra. Snake needs rope for it's existence, but rope does not need snake for it's existence. So rope can independently exist without snake (Maya).

    Skanda Bhagavan (Murugan, Kartikeyan, Kartik Swami) is shown both with and without wife (Maya), but he is not shown without veil, which represents Jnana. So you can live without maya as pure consciousness or Brahman, but you cannot live without Jnana. The Jnana that I am Brahman is needed to rise beyond Maya.

    So Bhagavan is inside everything but nothing is inside bhagavan.

    3. Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything.

    In statements 1 and 2, you either do not see Brahman from beginning as so you experience Maya. Later on you realize that only God (Rope) exists.

    After you are established in the state of Jnana (Atma-Jnana), you will at no time experience snake. Imagine that when you enter the room, there is light already. Now will you see the snake? No.

    So in Jnana Sthiti, i.e. Nirvikalp Samadhi, one is not aware of body or thi world, but just Brahman. You are Brahman.

    In the 3rd statement,

    Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything,

    There is no cause of illusion (darkness) and so there is no effect (Maya - Illusion). So there is no question of rope being inside snake. There is just one thing - Rope.

    This is tatva Jnana. A Jnani has to be a bhakta too. Another name of Jnani is Brahmanishtha - Brahma-NishthA, the one who has firm Nishtha (shraddha or vishwas) that one is Brahman. This type of bhakti is ananya bhakti, where the seeker does not think of itself as seperate from Brahman. From the beginning, you do to think of your self as a body and God as a person, but it's just consciousness.

    Now, This consciousness cannot be cut, broken or destroyed. Nothing can touch it.

    Sri Ramakrishna gave an e.g.

    A salt doll wanted to measure the depth of Ocean. The moment she stepped into ocean, she melted. Now who will tell you the depth of Ocean.

    The statement that 'I am Brahman' represents 'Atma Sthiti'.
    You should not repeat it like a parrot.

    Whether you accept it or not, you are under the influence of maya.

    So you will have to do a Atma-Khoj - Who Am I?

    In the statement - I am That

    That is Already Brahman

    The Statement - I AM That, will only become true if I = THAT

    I represents individuality. Ego keeps which I alive and wants to sustain individuality.

    I can be = ego, mind, body, sukshma sharita, jiva.

    In, I AM that, AM is the one that holds the key. It shows the process and also makes the statement as Non-Dual.

    If you replace AM by 'AM NOT' then the whole meaning changes.

    So I = THAT only when you know the Real 'I' or your true nature. But you are in duality. Just assuming does not help. So you have to ask 'Who AM I'. It is a khoj and after asking the questionin Nidhidhyasana, Thoughts and doubts ceases, they dissolve into source. You have to find the source of thoughts, breath, or mantra. That happens by awareness. By being Aware you are separated from Thoughts, not be being involving in thoughts. You will have to be de-focused by being aware. Anyways, that's all technical. But just a repetion 'Who Am I' will not help.

    Now about Keet-Bramar Nyaya, you will have to do chintan and manan (thinking and comtemplation) and not repetition. It is basically Antar-Khoj.

    Now coming to question, 'being a part of whole'

    Imagine a vast endless milky ocean (divine ocean of energy). Entire Ocean is Maya.

    Brahman is upon which this Maya rests and is inseperable.

    The difference between Jiva and Ishwara is that while Ishwara can take any form anywhere at will and can also again merge into Brahman at will, Jiva is bound and influenced by Maya.

    Both Ishwara and Jiva have 'Upadhis'. Ishwara takes adhara of 'Vidha Maya', the entire cosmos and is always aware of it's true nature i.e. Brahman. Remember that one rises above Maya by being aware or by knowing 'who am I' i.e. Being Brahman. Ishwara also knows the he is 'Brahman'. That is why he is called Maya-Pati, swami or controller of Maya. Be also knows that Maya is the shakti of Brahman and canot be seperated from it like fire and it's warmth.

    Bhagavan in Gita gives Jnana to Arjun. Since Gita is essence of Upanishads, which skeps of Brahma-Jnana, so Bhagavan Krushna also gives Brahma-Jnana to Arjun. Only a realized soul can give Brahma-Jnani. Only Jnani can give Jnana-Updesha. So Bhagavan is also SELF Realized. If you have noticed, in Gita it's Just Bhagavan, making it universal. Instead of Being Bhagavan, the substratum of entire universe, he does not take credit. He humbly says I am taking everything from Upanishads, which are created by Rishis, or simply I am quoting from Shastras, eventhough everything origins or emerges and dies (udbhava and laya) in God. So even bhagavan Krushna considers Shastras as authentic and there is not even a trace of Ego, no 'I' in Bhagavan.

    Coming back, Ishwara takes Adhara of Vidha Maya and Jiva takes Adhara of Panch-Mahabhuta. Ishwara is sarve-buddhiman and Jiva is alpa-buddhiman, bound by Maya, and having a feeling of seperateness of and so 'I'. Since Jiva and everything is inside Maya and is created from Maya, it also contains all tree Gunas – Satva, Rajas and Tamas. It is not seperate from Maya and so not seperate from Ishwara. But it is the feleing of seperateness due to avidya (ignorance) and Ahamkara (Ego) that we say that 'I am Part of the whole'

    So to you question:

    4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti? 
    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti 
    Again, Consider an Ocean (inverted on top and form which two branches come out – just for visualization - Jiva and God)


    So the thing that separates Ishwara and Jiva is knowledge that 'I Am Brahman' If you remove Vidha Maya from Ishwara and you remove Panch-Mahabhuta from Jiva, what is left is pure Brahman. That is why when in Jnana, one says, 'I am Brahman'. This does not mean that he can do same miracles that Krushna or other gods do, as you have correctly said, having siddhis entirely depends upon Grace of God and even devas.

    Aum
    IS

    Sources:

    Gita,
    Ramakrishna Jivan Charitra,
    Who AM I – Ramana Maharshi,
    40 verses on Reality – Ramana Maharshi,
    Updesha-saram by Sri Ramana Maharshi,
    discources on Gita and Updesha-sar by Swami Tadrupanand.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #5
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    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||


    Several things about BG 7.5
    (i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
    There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.

    (ii) In the next verse, BG 7.6 He shows that He is the source and cause of these TWO prakRtis.

    So jiva is prakRti ?? Then what is all the meditation about "I am AtmA" "I am That" ?

    !! What really happens is that the pure subtle marginal energy called jiva
    (marginal because it has the tendency to get free from or be bound to saMsAr), as a seeker of liberation / pure transcendental service, becomes
    either

    A] aligned with [param]AtmA - the nirAkAr aspect (temporarily or permanently) - this is dhyAn yog and nirvikalpa samAdhi and the saMskRt word leen is perfect in this case.
    In Hindi : ParamAtmA me leen honA.
    Here the jiva is lost deep into paramAtmA's arms Who is cradling the jiva.
    The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole. This is what we call "being One with or merging with or realizing the [param]AtmA"

    OR

    B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA (temporarily or permanently). This is also alignment (paramAtmA me leen hona) in one sense, except the jiva is actively interacting with BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

    In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.

    What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished? Several verses, but for now, BG 15.16,17,18 as seen shortly.

    5. Before going over to BG 15.16,17,18, let us look at a few other points.

    (i) AtmA does not act ,
    (ii) PrakRti is the doer
    (iii) but jiva should not think she is the doer - that would be ignorance

    - BG 5.9 BG 3.27

    What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA).

    When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

    Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ).

    Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.


    In the next posts :

    6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?
    7. Which words of Shri KRshNa give us a clue to either the jiva's identity, individuality or eternity or the lack of it?

    praNAm _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    Namaste,

    Like you continuing from above

    I think you must have got many answers from my first reply.

    Several things about BG 7.5
    (i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
    There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.
    When the Jiva is liberated, it is is detached from physical body. A Jnani can also live without physical body in subtle bodies. Sri Ramana Maharshi says that that Mind of Jnani is Brahman itself. So after Videhi-Mukti, Jiva does not exist.

    Two type of Prakriti

    To make anything who will require 2 things – Material needed for creation and knowledge (to make or create that particular thing).

    Ishwara knows what to make (knowledge) and also has tools and materials to make things (Maya). Ishwara does not need anything outside him.

    I recall an example of spider.

    Spider knows how to make 'Jala' (Web) and also has tools (saliva) to make it. Spider does not need anything extra from outside to create web i.e. Nor knowledge or material. Similarly, Ishwara is both material cause and efficient cause.



    Sri Ramana Maharshi says there are 3 margas

    Sri Ramana Maharshi, in Sri Ramana Gita says, SELF can be realized by 3 paths
    1. MaargaNa: Vichar Marg, Self Enquiry, Jnana Marg
    2. Majjan: To dive within (dictionary meaning). i.e. To merge, dissolve yourself in the source of Mantra. Bhakti Marg
    3. PraaNa Rodh: To stop breath (dictionary meaning). To observe, control and slow down the breath. i.e. Breath Control. Yog (Raja Yog)

    Source: Ramana Gita. Article: Three paths

    So leen means, on looses into or merges into God, loosing it's own existence. One can even realize brahman by all 3 paths

    Laya and Nasha are different. Laya means to be one with god or merging with God. But after spending some time in samadhi, mind again rises, as it is not dead, just sleeping, and with it rises the samsara. Again one enters into samadhi and mind sleeps, again it rises and so is duality. By repeatedly entering into samadhi, mind is emptied and destroyed. Now the mind does not rise again. There is no need to mediate. A person stays in nirvikalp samadhi for 21 days. After that the contact with body is permenetaly dropped. Sri Ramakrishna says only avatar can comes back again into body after 21 days. Most people do not return, but a select few, chosen by God returns from samadhi to do work of God. After that it's all God, not that person. He is Jivan Mukta. Such persons are very rare. My prostrations to Jivan Muktas who are Jnani Bhaktas, Atman of Krushna itself.

    In Jnana marg, from beginning, you do not think of anything else than Brahman. That is why Shankaracharya has called Maya as 'Mithya'

    It is illusion. Mithya means that one that does not exist but still you feel it.

    Remember Snake and Rope analogy. Upon seeing snake, you either tried to run away or towards it. So till you are in Maya give-n-take continues. Only after you realize Brahman, you can say (in Atma Sthiti)) that 'I am Brahman' and that Maya is illusion. It is a statement of Realization said from the state of SELF Realization.

    But in all cases, one does feel seperatenessness. The approach is different in all paths. In Dvaita after you have divine vision of God, all your wishes are up-rooted as you have reached your destination. You are entirely surrendered to God, though you have seperate existence. It will depends upon God to give you what is best for you. As Bhagavan in Gita says , at the time of death, if you take his name (Krushna or meditate on Brahman), then there is no second birth.

    What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA). 

    When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

    Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ). 
    Jiva is within Prakruti. By being aware of what's going on as a witness, one lets the divine enrgy and prarabhdha flow without obstruction. There is no resistance or any attempt to do any work. Everything just happens. This actually happens i.e. Seeker experience this divine state at avery later stages, upon reaching certain maturity.

    It is the identification with body and karma that one has to absorb the fruits.

    Lets take an e.g.

    If you have an account in swiss bank. You have too much bank balance. But you die before giving bank code to any one. In this case, what will happen to your bank balance? Can you enjoy it after diying or can someone take it. No?

    In the same way, all karma and attachments are bound to Jiva. When Jiva becomes Shiva, it looses it's existence. Who will enjoy fruits of karma? No one. There is no identification.

    Just like a dry leaf renounced by tree, the forutre entirely depends upon the wind. There is no resistence or interference from leaf. It does not care and simply accept it;s fate. It depends upon wind that it will land in temple premises or in Gutter or garbage can.

    Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.
    I agree.

    More continued

    Aum
    IS
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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  6. #6
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    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

    NOTES:

    * Shri KRshNa uses the word AtmA for Himself, and we understand that as ParamAtmA, the all-pervading omniscient omnipotent Lord.

    * Translators, AchArya, have used the term jivAtmA or AtmA for the individual soul although this exact term is not in the Gita. That is because, while the jiva is parA prakRti (higher energy) of the Supreme Lord, it is the 'sva' or 'Atman' or the 'self' of the individual. The highest AtmA is called paramAtmA in that case, to distinguish.

    * The word kshetrajn~a refers to both the jiva and paramAtmA because, the individual soul, jiva is ruling the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13]. At the same time, the Ultimate driver is ParamAtmA, the driver of jiva, hence He is the [Master-]kshetraj~na.

    * The abheda (oneness) messages in VedAnta shruti (the heard) have a very beautiful and noble intention of Atma-bhAv towards all. The jiva prakRti is the Lord's own prakRti, hence in its purest state it is said to be Brahman because it is perfectly aligned with Brahman. This is how jiva = Brahman.

    * The intimate relationship between jiva and Brahman (which the Lord always knew but the jiva realized in her purest state owing to bhakti) makes Brahman insist "You and I are One, there is no distance between Us" "I am the voice of your heart" "When you speak it is Me speaking" -- This is the result of ananya bhakti only - marching in step with the Supreme Lord. The jiva may continue to serve Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn.

    This will not happen if/as long as the jiva is engrossed in material pursuits. Bhagvan will never impose Himself on a jiva who wants to swim in the world independant of Him.

    * When jiva lives in nirvikalpa samadhi thru nirAkAr sadhana (spiritual practice seeking the formless) it has no consciousness of its seperate existence, merely awareness of Brahman. This is how the akshar (imperishable) parA (higher) prakRti (nature & energy) of the Supreme Brahman attains Brahman. This cannot be acheived without ananya bhakti (one-pointed devotion) to the Supreme Bhagvan and His Grace.

    * So, questions like "does the Self-realized become omniscient or have other siddhis" are not relevant here, because it is not the nature of 'ananya bhakti' to ask such questions. Bestowing a siddhi completely depends on the Will of the Supreme Lord, Who is the one bestowing. However, desires and expectations are an obstacle to liberation and we are told not to run after or get carried away by siddhis as ahaMkaar can manifest itself and be an obstacle.

    When KRshNa ate a mouthful of the flat rice (poha) that Sudama brought with love, but was shy to offer, KRshNa was so overwhelmed with love that He showered wealth and prosperity on Sudama, but started giving him the trailokya (the three worlds) when RukmiNi who is Lakshmi Devi, stopped Him (just in time). Sudama had children, lived in extreme poverty, yet he did not utter a word to ask KRshNa for anything. Such is bhakti.


    _/\_

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||
    From my understanding, Atman / Paramatman are one and the same tatva. It is just name difference (nama bheda).

    In Sri Ramakrishna's words, some people call pani as pani, some as jala, some as water. They are addressing the same thing.

    So for explanation Atman can be

    1. Body
    2. Mind
    3. Ego
    4. Jiva

    It depends upon the verse to be comtemplated.

    No system contradict each other. They just emphasis on one part – Bhakti or Jnana or Yog and so they explain from that standpoint.

    Kshetrajna refer to the knower of Kshetra. In this sense, you may be correct.

    But kshetrajna may also mean the controller. In this case, Jiva does not control it but is bound by kshetra (objects of world by attachment – I and mine), while in Atma Sthiti one is not atatched to Objects and so is not influenced by them. This is why Krushna in Gita says that even if you kill thousands and lakhs of people, not even a trace of sin (papa) will spill on you. Even the blood will not spill on you, you will not bath in blood as you are Atman, detached from your body.

    It is attachment that holds the key. We are all attached to our body, people, this wolrd and it's objects. We are mohAndha. Moha-andha like DhrutrAShTa. (what 'My' sons and Pandu Putras did)

    So Gita starts with Moha-andha and ends with the realiation of Arjun, 'NaShTo moha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacanam tava'

    Meaning, my moha – attachment (i and mine) is destroyed (nasha and not laya – subdued temperorily). After that the statement continues ...

    kariShye Vacanam tava

    Meaning, i will do whatever you say. Now there is no presumption or biasing. There is no choice. I am neutral.

    In this verse, first words are naShTo moha and later words are smrutir labdhA

    Order is also importance.

    So, it can be said that, my moha is destroyed an I now know my true nature ... and wil do whatever you say in unbiased way with spirit of detachment.

    Since we are attached with Body, i.e. Mind is attached with body and not God, and we cannot live without work, so first thing to do is to reduce or eleminate the attachment.

    One cannot be simply be aware of Atman or be a witness to whatever he/she is doing. We are all involved.

    So Gita says, do work, but surrender the fruits to God.

    One can progress in spiritaulity by

    1. Doing work in shakshi bhava
    2. Doing work for God (ishwara prityarthe)
    3. Doing work as an instrument of God.

    In all paths, like in Gita, final destination is one-ness with God. Gita ends with the last verse, which says, that where there is a disciple like Arjun and a guru like Krushna, there is Sri (fruit or atma jnana rupi phala or Atma-dhana), and there is victory. One is definintely established in wintness.

    By meaning all paths, means Karm, Bhakti, Jnana (and even Yog). Gita

    I do not in anyway say that other interpretations are wrong.

    Bhakta will not want moksha and will consider it as going to hell. They will always want to be at lotus feet of God and are ready to take infinite birth to serve him. Nothing is wrong or contradictory. But later on, it all depends upon God. Can you neglect any instruction of God which God gives? No. So we will just leave it to God to give that is best for us.

    Since one is only thinking of God at all times, even at the time of Death, God will take you with him. Bhagavan Krushna in Gita says that one who remembers me (and only me, with no otrher desires or want) also reaches me or gets moksha (sorry I don ot remember exact verse). But all I know is that there is no second birth.

    There is always a defininte purpose behind the teachings of Great acharyas like Shankaracharya, Nimbarkacharya, madhavacharya and other great acharyas. It's only that they focus on one thing more than other. Due to human natuer of comparing, they will say this path is superior, not to defame other paths, but to vage the monkey mind, ananlytical mind, skeptical mind, full of doubts, for our kalyan, they want us to be one-pointed. doesn't Bhagavan teach that one-pointed devotion is necessary. There is no need to go to another path. This path is sufficient. Respect all, but follow only one, as only one will suit you. So there are people in all paths. Each path has it's own followers.

    Nice talking to you. Great Braining storming session.

    my interpretations may be different, I never intend to de-fame an path and any faith.

    Jai Shri Krushna


    __/ \__

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #7

    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    A request: I hope this will not trigger essay-like pages and pages of counter-posts as that does not do good to a thread like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Kshetrajna refer to the knower of Kshetra. In this sense, you may be correct.

    But kshetrajna may also mean the controller. In this case, Jiva does not control it but is bound by kshetra (objects of world by attachment – I and mine), while in Atma Sthiti one is not atatched to Objects and so is not influenced by them.
    Have you ever considered the numerous individuals who are NOT bound to any body and are actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, NOT in the body anymore, AND having transcended birth-death? And yet, these individuals are Brahman, but not BhagvAn. They have Atma-bhAv towards all, yet they are individuals.

    A false assumption i see in your posts is individual existence (be it for selfish living or to serve Bhagvan) = ignorance ; individuality = birth-death cycle. This is not necessarily so.

    Acknowledging transcendental individual existence in order to serve Bhagvan AFTER cessation of birth-death cycles is not ignorance (this is indeed seeing rope as a rope). Being trapped in the 3 modes of nature and allowing material nature to control you is ignorance (this is seeing the rope as a snake).

    Even within bhAv samAdhi, a bhakta may play 'Bhagvan' or "wear a Bhagvan bhAv" This is just like a child wearing dad's shoes and walking around the house, but the jiva prakRti is there.

    KRshNa does say "madbhAvam" , such and such a devotee reaches "My bhAv", "My dhAm/abode", "My prema" "My sAnidhya (association)" "Bliss similar to me" This is a bhAv. A beautiful bhAv.

    "Everyone and everything is but me" is a beautiful bhAv OR a tattva by transitivity because it is all Brahman. Well, a lot happens within Brahman.

    So Gita starts with Moha-andha and ends with the realization of Arjun, 'NaShTo moha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacanam tava'
    Meaning, my moha – attachment (i and mine) is destroyed (nasha and not laya – subdued temperorily).
    And yet Arjun remains an individual His form may change, but not the token.
    Whether you believe it or not, Arjun, Uddhav and other parshads attend a BhAgvat KathA saptAh gathering on day one. Particularly during kirtan of the Bhagvat mahatmya.
    In the winter months, BadrinAth dhAm and Temple are closed, the main priests also have to leave the place and go south until next spring. It snows there. Only the Indian army stays has some presence there for security.
    At that time, Uddhav performs the nitya (regular) pUja of Shriman BadrinArAyaN. Kuber and GhanTA KarNa assist Him as kshetrapALs.

    Nar-NArAyaN Rshis of BadrikAraNya (Lord NArAyaN's rshi avatAr and His brother pArshad) born to mUrti, came back in dwApar as Arjun and KRshNa respectively. It was NArAyaN's kind grace that He declared : "the name of Nar will always be uttered first, and then My name." Same with Radha.
    Nar-Narayan. Radha-KRshNa. in that order.

    Are Arjun and Uddhav, who are Brahman, ignorant for being individuals other than BhagavAn ? If Arjun is not another person, how can he give BhagvAn the leela pleasure of being His favorite GuDAkesha ?

    Those who "lose individuality" actually simply are not conscious of the associated prakRti. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is great. The individual may not know, but the Supreme Lord knows.

    BG 2.12 Never was there a time when You, Me and all these kings did not exist, and never will ... cease to exist.

    He does not say "Brahman does not cease to exist" but "Me, you and the kings"
    If Bhagvan expects Arjun to get liberated at His hands, then by your theory Arjun as an individual must cease to exist. However, devotees know that he comes here along with Bhagvan's associates, pArshads, in the next avatAr.

    The great souls, pArshads may have a simultaneous existence in the VaikuNTha state-realm and Golok state-realm and have expansions in other states-realms.

    FYI, your Raman Maharshi also acknowledges the VaikuNThas, he just says to his disciples "We are not interested in all that"

    ----

    To the argument that "This is all happenning on the vyAvahAric plane"
    Well then, the sweet Supreme Lord wanted to be many, so His devotees want to participate in the manyness. This does not mean birth-death cycles and ignorance! This material world is merely a fraction of the Lord's existence. The Lord sports in the spiritual with the devotees... and guess what - they are aaaaaalllllllll Brahman

    This is why KRshNa says BG 18.67 DO NOT tell this secret to those who are not devoted, not austere, or those who do not have favorable feelings towards Me.


    _/\_

    Jai Shri KRshNa
    Last edited by smaranam; 28 January 2013 at 01:47 AM. Reason: moved request on top
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #8
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    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||



    Have you ever considered the numerous individuals who are NOT bound to any body and are actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, NOT in the body anymore, AND having transcended birth-death? And yet, these individuals are Brahman, but not BhagvAn. They have Atma-bhAv towards all, yet they are individuals.

    A false assumption i see in your posts is individual existence (be it for selfish living or to serve Bhagvan) = ignorance ; individuality = birth-death cycle. This is not necessarily so.

    Acknowledging transcendental individual existence in order to serve Bhagvan AFTER cessation of birth-death cycles is not ignorance (this is indeed seeing rope as a rope). Being trapped in the 3 modes of nature and allowing material nature to control you is ignorance (this is seeing the rope as a snake).

    Even within bhAv samAdhi, a bhakta may play 'Bhagvan' or "wear a Bhagvan bhAv" This is just like a child wearing dad's shoes and walking around the house, but the jiva prakRti is there.

    KRshNa does say "madbhAvam" , such and such a devotee reaches "My bhAv", "My dhAm/abode", "My prema" "My sAnidhya (association)" "Bliss similar to me" This is a bhAv. A beautiful bhAv.

    "Everyone and everything is but me" is a beautiful bhAv OR a tattva by transitivity because it is all Brahman. Well, a lot happens within Brahman.



    And yet Arjun remains an individual His form may change, but not the token.
    Whether you believe it or not, Arjun, Uddhav and other parshads attend a BhAgvat KathA saptAh gathering on day one. Particularly during kirtan of the Bhagvat mahatmya.
    In the winter months, BadrinAth dhAm and Temple are closed, the main priests also have to leave the place and go south until next spring. It snows there. Only the Indian army stays has some presence there for security.
    At that time, Uddhav performs the nitya (regular) pUja of Shriman BadrinArAyaN. Kuber and GhanTA KarNa assist Him as kshetrapALs.

    Nar-NArAyaN Rshis of BadrikAraNya (Lord NArAyaN's rshi avatAr and His brother pArshad) born to mUrti, came back in dwApar as Arjun and KRshNa respectively. It was NArAyaN's kind grace that He declared : "the name of Nar will always be uttered first, and then My name." Same with Radha.
    Nar-Narayan. Radha-KRshNa. in that order.

    Are Arjun and Uddhav, who are Brahman, ignorant for being individuals other than BhagavAn ? If Arjun is not another person, how can he give BhagvAn the leela pleasure of being His favorite GuDAkesha ?

    Those who "lose individuality" actually simply are not conscious of the associated prakRti. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is great. The individual may not know, but the Supreme Lord knows.

    BG 2.12 Never was there a time when You, Me and all these kings did not exist, and never will ... cease to exist.

    He does not say "Brahman does not cease to exist" but "Me, you and the kings"
    If Bhagvan expects Arjun to get liberated at His hands, then by your theory Arjun as an individual must cease to exist. However, devotees know that he comes here along with Bhagvan's associates, pArshads, in the next avatAr.

    The great souls, pArshads may have a simultaneous existence in the VaikuNTha state-realm and Golok state-realm and have expansions in other states-realms.

    FYI, your Raman Maharshi also acknowledges the VaikuNThas, he just says to his disciples "We are not interested in all that"

    ----

    To the argument that "This is all happenning on the vyAvahAric plane"
    Well then, the sweet Supreme Lord wanted to be many, so His devotees want to participate in the manyness. This does not mean birth-death cycles and ignorance! This material world is merely a fraction of the Lord's existence. The Lord sports in the spiritual with the devotees... and guess what - they are aaaaaalllllllll Brahman

    This is why KRshNa says BG 18.67 DO NOT tell this secret to those who are not devoted, not austere, or those who do not have favorable feelings towards Me.

    A request: I hope this will not trigger essay-like pages and pages of counter-posts as that does not do good to a thread like this.

    _/\_

    Jai Shri KRshNa
    Namaste,

    I very well understand you and your point of reference.

    I will also try not to write a multi page essay and write it in right spirit

    Ofcourse, Ramana Maharshi dos acknowledge vaikuntha. In Advaita, we never reject Maya or Vaikuntha (I do not say Vaikuntha is maya). It is that we neglect or in better words 'does not give emphasis' to it. - it is not negative. You may think of it as one-pointedness

    again, in Sri Ramakrishna's words

    Some people after attaining Brahman or Atman Jnana, retains false ego for the good of all.

    An e.g.

    You can use a thick rope to tie something. After the rope is burnt, it still retains it's shape (look-n-feel), but it is not the same rope, though it may look it a rope and you cannot use it to tie something.

    Sukhdev, Shankaracharya kept 'Ego of Knowledge' to retain their physical body to do the divine work.

    Similarly other great acharyas, disciples avatars and jnanis keep 'Ego of Bhakti, Knowledge or devotee for lok-kalyan. They are not bound by it, but prefer to live like laymen, so that people can benefit from them. It all happens by divine wish.

    another e.g. is that of Paras-mani (philosopher's stone).

    If you touch Paras-mani to a sharp and strong metal sword, then it will convert into Gold. Still it looks like a sword, but you cannot use it in battle field.

    As I have earlier said, retaining physical body is not necessary after realization / having vision of God and that one can live in sukshma sharita and can do the work of God. God also gives them free will to do whatever they want. They can even take avatar or quit body. The effect of their work is that it does good to mankind and this samsara in general.

    I completely agree with everything you have said

    If you worship Krishna or Brahman, what happens is that 'bhakti' - a quality increases. Finally a bhakta, yogi, vedantin will renounce everything for God. Isn't it.

    Because I have read Sri Ramakrishna a lot, who practiced many faith and paths, I have to accept that all faiths are true and authentic with no 'ifs and buts'. There is no doubt. Only the way of interpretation changes.

    I also hope I have not offended you or any faith.

    Isn't it a shortest answer and that it's not contradicting your approach and faith.

    Give me my 'toffy'

    Aum

    IS

    btw, this must be one of the rare post in which I have not been logged out before i finish typing and hit 'submit reply' button
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  9. #9

    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Namaste

    Thanks, IndiaSpirituality. I shall also keep it short.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    As I have earlier said, retaining physical body is not necessary after realization / having vision of God and that one can live in sukshma sharira and can do the work of God. God also gives them free will to do whatever they want. They can even take avatar or quit body. The effect of their work is that it does good to mankind and this samsara in general.
    We are not talking about staying in sUkshma sharIra and doing some work for this material world. Yes, Raman Maharshi, Sai Baba of Shirdi, perhaps Aurobindo and also recent gurus like PrabhupAd are doing this.

    I have a problem with "they can take avatAr" This is how the abheda shruti gets distorted. Other than the fact that the Guru is a representative of Bhagvan, a God-realized person does not [necessarily] imply avatAr. Not necessarily. All of BhagvAn's pArshads are not avatArs. They are jivas. Siddha jivas. The purpose of their existence may not be only to do kalyAN for the material world. There are more reasons. There are baddha jivas and siddha jivas, also nitya siddha jivas. We do not call them VishNu-tattva. That is the whole point. Jivas do not necessarily vanish or stop being jivas.

    Finally a bhakta, yogi, vedantin will renounce everything for God. Isn't it.
    I am not sure what you are implying. Renounce the world for God, yes. But not necessarily renounce transcendental individual existence, otherwise how will the bhakta serve God? To repeat, if Arjun, Shridama, Sudama, Gopis, GaruDa stopped existing, who will be NArAyaN's vahAn? Who will be KRshNa's sakha, sakhi? The devotees (who are Bhagvan's shakti but not Him or His avatar or expansion necessarily) are sensitive to what Bhagvan likes. At the same time they are Brahman, jnanis and yogis.

    Because I have read Sri Ramakrishna a lot, who practiced many faith and paths, I have to accept that all faiths are true and authentic with no 'ifs and buts'. There is no doubt. Only the way of interpretation changes.
    This is good, and I know this about you already. You make efforts to strike that balance in the posts. I do not see contradiction in the scriptures either. However, the problem is with distortion of the teachings that happen these days, and 'being God'
    If the goal is total oneness, i understand that not acknowledging individual existence is wise. However, it is not necessarily a sign of ignorance otherwise.

    This is not addressed to you, it is just how things are sometimes.

    _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
    Last edited by smaranam; 28 January 2013 at 02:45 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  10. #10
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    Re: Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    We are not talking about staying in sUkshma sharIra and doing some work for this material world. Yes, Raman Maharshi, Sai Baba of Shirdi, perhaps Aurobindo and also recent gurus like PrabhupAd are doing this.

    I have a problem with "they can take avatAr" This is how the abheda shruti gets distorted. Other than the fact that the Guru is a representative of Bhagvan, a God-realized person does not [necessarily] imply avatAr. Not necessarily. All of BhagvAn's pArshads are not avatArs. They are jivas. Siddha jivas. The purpose of their existence may not be only to do kalyAN for the material world. There are more reasons.
    By meaning avatar means that a realized saint can again come to earth. I do not say for protection of dharma etc, as it is the job of God. What I mean is that they too can take avatar like Arjuna, and other devotees / disciples and accompany God in his lila or to simply enjoy his lila and bhakti rasa or may be for other reasons.

    I do not mean they are Gods like KrushNa or RAma. We cannot compare God and it's avatar, but the word avatar means avataraNa - to come back or to descend.

    Like it is said that some siddhas who are dhyana siddhas, but not one with brahman can choose their mother. They do have to take birth, but they may have a choice where to take birth.

    If we do not agree with this point, then for good of both, lets leave it here.

    Best is to start walking then to spend time discussing it.

    Guru is a representation of God or Brahman and not Brahman - I agree.

    A realized guru cannot be called Krushna. God is God.

    Like I have said they realized saints or bhaktas are like burned rope. though their actions look like ajnani, they are not of same and they do not produce fruits like in case of baddha jiva.

    Kartaa Bhava (doorship) is absent.

    There are baddha jivas and siddha jivas, also nitya siddha jivas. We do not call them VishNu-tattva. That is the whole point. Jivas do not necessarily vanish or stop being jivas.
    I agree


    I am not sure what you are implying. Renounce the world for God, yes. But not necessarily renounce transcendental individual existence, otherwise how will the bhakta serve God? To repeat, if Arjun, Shridama, Sudama, Gopis, GaruDa stopped existing, who will be NArAyaN's vahAn? Who will be KRshNa's sakha, sakhi? The devotees (who are Bhagvan's shakti but not Him or His avatar or expansion necessarily) are sensitive to what Bhagvan likes. At the same time they are Brahman, jnanis and yogis.
    Sorry for improper info. Please accept my apologies. it should be worldly desires.


    This is good, and I know this about you already. You make efforts to strike that balance in the posts. I do not see contradiction in the scriptures either. However, the problem is with distortion of the teachings that happen these days, and 'being God'
    If the goal is total oneness, i understand that not acknowledging individual existence is wise. However, it is not necessarily a sign of ignorance otherwise.
    I agree

    Sri Ramakrishna says that even if a bhakta has ego (of devotee - for separate existence), it is a ripe one and does not harm at all. - This statement is for advaitins like me

    Difference in opinion arises because of different approach.

    Aum

    Jai shri KrUshNa
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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