Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

[Amrut]

Please continue your beautiful posts and other chapters. I will not hijack your thread

Chapters 16 and 17 are called parishistha. Chapter 18 is upsamhAra (upasavhAra)

Chapters 16 and 17 are barometers of our spiritual progress with daivi & Asuri shakti and different types of shraddha being explained by Bhagavan Krushna

chapter 18 summarizes all 17 chapters, comes to conclusion and sings glory of Arjuna and Arjuna and Bhagavan Krushna (in last verse).

[smaranam]

Namaste

OK, I see what you mean by avatar etc.

Thanks for all your inputs on this thread.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa ~

[smaranam]

I will not hijack your thread

You are certainly not hijacking the thread, and as i said earlier, thanks for your insightful inputs.

Chapters 16 and 17 are called parishistha. Chapter 18 is upsamhAra (upasavhAra)

That is nice to know. They are barometers indeed.

Jai Shri KRshNa

[smaranam]

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

!! What really happens is that the liberated jiva becomes either

A] aligned with [param]AtmA - The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole.
OR
B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA - the jiva is free from matter and actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.
What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished?

BG 15.16 – Bhagavan says there are 2 kinds of purusha (entities / beings / consciousnesses)
i) kshar – perishable
ii) akshar – imperishable

All VaishNav AchArya unanimously tell us these are
i) the moving and stationary living entities – 84 crore species - embodied jivas (whose bodies will perish), or those who are undergoing birth and death.
ii) the liberated free jivas who need not take birth in a material body. This group is called akshar – imperishable, i.e. eternal.
This shows jiva does not mean just embodied beings in the material world.

Other translations interpret the 2 types of purusha as
i) aparA prakRti, lower energy, matter which is perishable (kshar)
ii) parA prakRti, higher energy, spirit soul i.e. jiva prakRti – imperishable (akshar)

First point: With this second interpretation, can we call matter as a purush?
Purush = the one who lives in, resides in the ‘pur’ or city, which means the body here.
Who resides in the body? The jiva.
Also, Purush = a being. Can we call a stone a being? Are insentient things called beings?
This means the unanimous first translation makes all sense for 2 purushas – baddha jiva (bound) and siddha jiva (free)

Second Point: Did KRshNa not tell us about the 2 prakRtis a)matter b)spirit in BG 7.4, BG7.5? He would not repeat this information again with no added value. So He must be talking about something else here. He will not call the same things apara and para prakrti once and kshar and akshar purush a second time.

Third point: In either case, the eternal imperishable (akshar) points to the jiva! Thus demonstrating the eternal nature of jiva prakRti.


BG 15.17 – KRshNa says there is a third purusha. He is the Uttam Purusha. The Supreme Purusha – the paramAtmA who is different, transcends, governs and is the source of the first 2 kinds – i.e. bound and free jivas.

He holds all the power – infinite shakti, whereas jiva, whether bound or free, is small shakti.

BG 15.18 says this Uttam Purusha is rightly called Purushottam by the world and by the Vedas. So the Supreme Lord gives a backing of the original scripture – Veda.

If jiva were an illusion, then it would not be akshar in the first place, being akshar, KRshNa would not use 2 (and more) verses to distinguish it from the Purushottam.

The jiva not bound to matter, without impure ahaMkAr (ego), is this Purushottam's tiny spiritual energy, and hence "I am Brahman" holds true. Because Purushottam is Brahman, His spiritual energy is Brahman. Sometimes this energy gets lost in Brahman and cannot tell itself apart. sarvam khalvidam brahman.

_/\_

Om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[smaranam]

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?

After pointing to the individual consciousness, the jiva, as akin to being under the influence of material guNas in BG13.22,
In BG 13.23 BhagavAn Shri KRshNa says there is a Witness too, in addition to the jiva - demostrated by the words iti cha api and purusha parah: (transcendental to the purush in the previous verse)
Not that the jiva turns into/turns out to be, the Supreme in all respects, on liberation/knowledge.
What are His attributes?
1. UpadRshTA - witness
2. anumantA - permitter, giving the allowance, sentience (for even a blade of grass to move)
3. bhartA - maintainer, companion, owner...
4. bhoktA - enjoyer, experiencer
5. maheshwara - the Supreme Controller

For all properties 1 to 5 to co-exist in this entity, it has to be the Supreme Being, paramAtmA who is omniscient, omnipotent, all-pervading.
What we call universal consciousness.

This is very interesting, because let us say an embodied jiva has turned her back to material nature. She can very well play the role of witness, and to some extent, of enjoyer or experiencer (bhoktA), but not all the roles on the list above.

The jiva turned inwards, owing to bhakti, association with paramAtmA-BhagavAn, can get a clear experience of the silent inner witness. Witnesser of thoughts that come and go and all that happens - surprises and all.
Also gets the experience of the one acknowledging taste, sight, thought, sound etc. as "I".

What is this phenomenon all about? Is it the individual consciousness observing the mind? Since KRshNa says in many places (Chap 3,5,13,...) that even the individual consciousness is really not the kartA (actor), simply the lower prakRti acts thru' the instruments (jnAnendrIya and karmendrIya), this makes sense.

The individual soul, jiva, is a tiny fraction of the Supreme Lord's higher energy (prakRti). This is how the jiva is a 'aMsha' of Him (BG 15.7 - mamaiva aMsha jiva loke jiva-bhUta sanAtana). Jiva is not only eternal like paramAtmA, it shares the nature of paramAtmA in quality, but of course not all the power.

So, given this, jiva is given a minute independence as well as it inherits some traits such as being the indwelling witness and experiencer of the kshetra (body).
The [param]AtmA in that case is the Master Witness and the Master Experiencer and Ultimate, real enjoyer (bhoktA).

The jiva cannot be truly called anumantA (permitter, granter, sanctioner of activity). Because nothing can happen without the [param]AtmA. Not a blade of grass can move - as explained in BG 7.6,7 - pearls on a thread)
Same argument holds for bhartA.

The jivAtmA cannot be the maheshwara - omniscient omnipotent and all-pervading because she clearly is not. If she were, she would know what each entity is doing and what is happening throughout the galaxy and universe without any external means i.e. the omniscience would descend into the intellect. Perhaps a fraction of this may happen - but only if the accompanying paramAtmA wills it, not otherwise.

Even if maheshwara is simply taken to be the Ultimate Controller, that is clearly the [param]AtmA, and not the jiv[AtmA].

It is clear that jiva inherits the witnessing and experiencing qualities of paramAtmA.

Regarding this, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami says in purport to Chaitanya CharitrAmRt Madhya Lila 22.9, that sometimes jiva-prakRti imitates paramAtmA to a degree:

The personal expansions are known as viṣṇu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jīva-tattva. Although the jīvas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies. This is fully described by Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.5):

apareyam itas tv anyāḿ prakṛtiḿ viddhi me parām
jīva-bhūtāḿ mahā-bāho yayedaḿ dhāryate jagat
"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature."

Although the living entities are Kṛṣṇa's parts and parcels, they are prakṛti, not puruṣa. Sometimes prakṛti (a living entity) attempts to imitate the activities of the puruṣa.

Apart from this, jiva inherits the qualities of being eternal, pure, full of love, and blissful - qualitatively.
So, one caught in experiences of happiness and distress of this world is forgetting that they are in fact a very beautiful, eternal part of the Supreme Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn and very loving and blissful in nature.

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[jopmala]

Namaste smaranamji

I would like to suggest some points in support of the jiva being part of sri Krishna which is very much clear from verse 7 of 15th chapter. Those who oppose this, has the opinion that Brahman can not be divided into parts etc etc. Here in chapter 15 sri bhagavan says that there are two kinds of purushas – kshara ( perishable i.e. all beings, the jiva enmeshed by prakriti) and akshara (imperishable i.e. immutable attribute less, reality of brahman). All beings are perishable ( ksharah sarbani bhutani) and changeless one is said to be imperishable (kutastho’kshara uchyate).-verse 16 of 15th chap. There is the supreme person distinct from these called the supreme self ( uttam purusha). It is the he who as the imperishable Lord, pervading the three worlds sustains all – 17 of 15th . sri bhagavan says “ since I am beyond the perishable and superior to the imperishable , I am known in the Vedas and in this world as the supreme person ( Purushottama)” -18 of 15th. Knowing him as such, there is nothing else left to be known. Now link these verses with verses 4,5,6,7 of chap 7th, 4 and 20 of 8th

The thing is very clear. Part of bhagavan does not mean that he has been cut into pieces. He is one and only but this jagat comes from him as his apara prakriti and atma also comes from him as his para prakriti. It is he who enters the earth and sustain all beings with his vital energy ( 13 of 15th ). He is distinct from these two prakrities or purushas so he is purushottam. Just think, the rays which come out of the sun can not claim themselves to be the sun itself though they are part of their source, the sun. one has to understand that the rays are coming out of the sun not by cutting sun into pieces. These rays are bearing some sort of similarities with the sun. verse 30 of chap XIII says “ when sadhakas sees the separate existence of all beings centered in one and emanating from that one alone, he becomes one with the Brahman”. Those who claim jiva is Brahman, they ignore this purushottam tattva. There is no tattva which excels him ( 7 of 7th ) but here he says “ I excel the imperishable” ( 18 of 15th ) . Generally, kutastha akshar implies nirgun nirvishes Brahman tattva as we find in Gita verses 3 and 20 of chap 8th, 37 of chap 11th and 3 of chap 12th but here in verse 18 of 15th he excels akshara Brahman and become purushottam. As a purushottam , he is both with and without attributes ; creator, preserver and destroyer, partaker of rites and sacrifices, goal, sustainer , master, wirness , abode refuse and friend of all beings .

The Gita has brought about a synthesis of jnan, bhakti and karma by means of this doctrine of purushottam which is highly secret. This can not be achieved by the doctrine of Brahman. For the Brahman of the protagonists of the maya is nirgun nirakar nirvhishes. The purusha of the samkhya school is also like that. So according to the both the schools it is only by renouncing action that deliverance can be attained. Further there is no room for bhakti in this deliverance. The purushottam of Gita however, is calm undisturbed attribute less infinite, abiding as a soul in all beings ; at the same time , he promotes and sustains attributes, is inspirer of prakriti or karma, partaker of rites and sacrifices , Lord of lords. Hence the consciousness of beings, at one with all beings amounts to the consciousness of the supreme person. Now we have to understand the verse 27 of chap XIV where sri bhagavan says “ For I am the abode of Brahman, the immortal and immutable , of eternal dharma and absolute bliss”.

Therefore Brahman is one aspect that is undefinable absolute attribute less whereas the supreme person or purushottam is with or without attributes creator preserver destroyer partaker of sacrifices and worship, lord of the universe. Ignoring purushottam tattva , some people tries to explain nirgun nirvishesh nirakar Brahman to be higher than sagun savishesh sakar bhagavan. These people forget the question asked to sri bhagavan by Arjuna in verse 1 of chap 12 as to who are superior devotees of the two those ever steadfast devotees who worship you( sagun sakar savishesh) and those who worship the imperishable and unmanifested Brahman . The answer given in verse 5 of chap 12 where it says “ who set their thoughts on the unmanifested have to face a harder task for the goal of the unmanifested is difficult to attain by the embodied soul” .The question is not which is higher(fourth state) or which is lower( third state). The question is which aspect is easier to attain for the jives. The reply is in verse 5 . Therefore accepting the Gita as one of the pillars of their philosophy and disrespecting Gita by rejecting its teachings is nothing but hypocrisy. In one hand they say nirgun nirakar and nirvishesh and sagun sakar savishesh are two aspect of same coin, the Brahman but on the other hand their philosophy says nirgun nirakar is at highest that is the fourth state and sagun sakar is the third state of realization which establishes higher and lower states. Is this acceptable to Gita ?According to Gita there is no higher or lower states. He is purushottam distinct from Brahman and maya. In verse 16 of chap 8th sri bhagavan says “ from the domain of Brahman to this world all worlds are subject to cycles of birth but having attained me there is no rebirth”. Verse 26 of 14th says “ He who worships me with unfaltering love transcends these gunas and becomes fit to attain oneness with the Brahman” and verse 54 of 18th says “ Being one with Brahman, with tranquility in mind neither grieving nor craving ,regarding all beings alike he attains supreme devotion unto me” and then verse 55 of 18th says “ Through such devotion he comes to know me, who and how much I am and in all my reality and principles of my being and having known me in truth he forthwith enters into me” There are atma-tattva, Brahman-tattva and purushottam-tattva.

[smaranam]

praNAm jopmala

Thanks. Your post is quite informative, although i have something different to say now, about kshetrajna and jiva. There is only one kshetrajna. Actually I have touched kshar, akshar purush BG 15.6, uttam purush, jiva prakrti, kshetradnya etc. - please see my last two posts if not the whole thread.

However, what I like is that you put it in one consice post and corelate, while I spread things in several posts. So the message may not be clear unless one reads the whole thread.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
---------------------

praNAm readers,

Perhaps what I am about to say now might shock some of you:

I want to ammend/correct my message on this thread.

Before creating this thread, I had made a very clear conclusion about the Gita, our shastra, hand in hand with experience as a bhakta and jignyasu. That conclusion (back in Dec 2012) is NOT reflected in my posts on this thread. So it is my duty to make that ammendment.

REASON: The conclusion (as of Dec 2012) changed to align with the VaishNav thought once again because... although the jig-saw puzzle was put together by KRshNa's grace, one piece would not fit:

Shastra points to one AtmA and one kshetradnya.
If AtmA is the upadRshTA, witness, I have been there. As sAkshi. With KRshNa's patient help I have concluded that sAkshi is me is AtmA. As a bhakta I did not like just being the sAkshi (or dRshTA) because there is no devotion in being a sAkshi AtmA. However, besides this, there was a BIG shAstric doubt:

If I can indeed be that sAkshi AtmA, then that must make me omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, and (without exploding the brain/intellect), the omniscience at least should decend into the intellect.

Clearly, I remain an ordinary insignificant being with no such powers (which I do not care about - only about KRshNa's Lotus Feet) - unless the Lord supplies information like He does to siddhas.
This must mean that the jiva immitates the all-pervading paramAtmA in case of the witnessing, at least for a short time - and so, just being a sAkshi, dRshTA or witness is not enough to be labeled AtmA. Clearly the buddhi is doing the witnessing here.

So, the shAstric conclusion of one AtmA and one kshetradnya was contradicted, although this is what I read and get from Bh Gita and Bhagvatam too, that only the PurNa Purushottam BhagavAn and His potency/potencies exist. Other beings are their expansion like spider spinning a web.

This is the message that Bhagavad Gita (KathA by KRshNa) and Shrimad BhAgvatam (KathA OF and By KRshNa) is sending to me. This conclusion does not change a thing about bhakti (devotion) and any bhakta's relationship with the Supreme Lord, Govind. It was always the way it was. In fact my personal experience would not fit the VaishNav msg hand-in-glove, and I know exactly why. KRshNa will willingly tell, but I would not listen - owing to this one point (omniscience).

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[smaranam]

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

Shri BhagvAn uvAcha ... revisited.

The following, particularly about the two kshetrajnas needs modification.

NOTES:

* The word kshetrajn~a refers to both the jiva and paramAtmA because, the individual soul, jiva is ruling the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13]. At the same time, the Ultimate driver is ParamAtmA, the driver of jiva, hence He is the [Master-]kshetraj~na.

This is not the message I am getting from Gita and BhAgvat.

BG 13.2 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī, is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field.

BG 13.3: O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its knower is called knowledge. That is My opinion.

Nowhere does the Lord say there is another kshetradnya. He just says kshetra is the body, and I am its knower. The "also" (api cha) is in context means: "Amongst other things that I am, I am also the knower in the body."
KRshNa goes on further to explain the kshetra (field) in detail, and lists what one should do or how to be to gain knowledge to get out of bondage.

This is backed up by JaDa BhArat, who is teaching King RAhugaNa about self realization in BhAgvat Canto 5:

SB 5.11.12
kṣetrajña etā manaso vibhūtīr
jīvasya māyā-racitasya nityāḥ
āvirhitāḥ kvāpi tirohitāś ca
śuddho vicaṣṭe hy aviśuddha-kartuḥ

The kshetrajna witnesses many ideas and activities created in the mind by the external energy. They have been existing from time immemorial. Sometimes they are manifest in the wakening state and in the dream state, but during deep sleep [unconsciousness] or trance, they disappear. A person who is liberated in this life [jīvan-mukta] can see all these things vividly.

SB 5.11.13-14
kṣetrajña ātmā puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ
sākṣāt svayaḿ jyotir ajaḥ pareśaḥ
nārāyaṇo bhagavān vāsudevaḥ
sva-māyayātmany avadhīyamānaḥ
yathānilaḥ sthāvara-jańgamānām
ātma-svarūpeṇa niviṣṭa īśet
evaḿ paro bhagavān vāsudevaḥ
kṣetrajña ātmedam anupraviṣṭaḥ

The kshetrajna is the all-pervading cause of creation. He is full in Himself and is not dependent on others. He is perceived by hearing and direct perception. He is self-effulgent and does not experience birth, death, old age or disease. He is the controller of all the demigods, beginning with Lord Brahmā. He is called Nārāyaṇa, and He is the shelter of living entities after the annihilation of this material world. He is full of all opulences, and He is the resting place of everything material. He is therefore known as Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By His own potency, He is present within the hearts of all living entities, just as the air or vital force is within the bodies of all beings, moving and nonmoving. In this way He controls the body. In His partial feature, the Supreme Personality of Godhead enters all bodies and controls them.

PrabhupAd translates SB 5.11.12 as the individual soul kshetrajna, but the saMskRt does not say any such thing. Just that "the kshetrajna" witnesses the activities of the mind.
The next two verses describe Who exactly this kshetrajna is - VAsudev.

There are many verses in the BhAgvatam which say that "The Supreme Lord NArAyaNa entered all creation and experienced the guNas" "The Supreme "became" all beings and all lokas"

and the chatushloki BhAgvat spoken by the Lord Himself - "In the beginning there was only Me. So all that you see is but Me by either anvaya or vyatirek (directly or indirectly)" - which does not contradict any of the siddhantas.


In case of both BG 7.5,6 (jiva is My para prakRti) and BG 15.7 (jivas in this world are my aMsha - tiny fractions), KRshNa is talking about embodied beings (or those undergoing birth-death, with vasanas, karma, sankalpa all present).

Practically speaking, the jivaness does not go away. Individuality does not just go away. It is hard. That bhaktas want to maintain pure individual state for the sake of devotion is a different story. It takes two to love. The ones that merge or work towards losing individuality also may have some thin layer of individual characteristics left over.

Above and beyond all this is the beautiful fact that both Bhagvad Gita and BhAgavt are devotional texts, full of bhakti - to the brim.

The message of Bh. Gita and BhAgvat purAN: chatuhshloki bhAgvat. Everything is Me alone. HOWEVER, ananya ahaituki nirapeksha nishkAm bhakti (one-pointed, causeless, selfless, expectationless pure devotion) towards the Supreme Lord NArAyaNa, is THE WAY TO GO


So what difference does it make ?
as long as it is only Govind and Shri
and as long as
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi


_/\_

[smaranam]

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Summary from yesterday: Gita and BhAgvat tell me there is only ONE kshetrajna AtmA - Who happens to be THE one and only purAN purush, uttam purush, Adi kavi, anadi adi saccidananda NArAyaNa VAsudeva.

So, back to the jiva shakti. TaTastha** shakti (marginal potency) of the Supreme Lord, Supreme Absolute Truth.

KRshNa says that which makes the creatures (bhUta) sentient is His parA prakRti (BG 7.4,5,6) - or higher energy. Higher compared to gross prakRti which includes mind, intellect and false-ego (ahaMkAr).

AhaMkAr (ego) is not included in parA prakRti that makes jiva. So, we cannot say that "jiva is an illusory state owing to ahaMkAr" or can we?

What exactly is this potency? It is a "tendency." or a kind of "bhAv" although not the Supreme Lord's original svabhAv (intrinsic nature). It is His actor's nature?? (Natkhat natvar that He is.) It is weaker than DurgA (external potency, sat) and weaker than Radha (internal potency, hlAdini) but has qualities of both. An in-between potency which tends to get deluded by the material modes, as well as has the ability to stay KRshNa-conscious and beyond the modes if surrendered and devoted.

WHO is it that "tends to be marginal" here? Is it not the AtmA who has adopted this tiny marginal potency?

When the AtmA stays fully Himself, He has the entire set of His potencies in full, untouched by anything material. But it is apparently His "nature" to "become" the world. Hence, the very same AtmA, the very same saccidAnanda Govinda, adopts this tiny tendency ?

So what if He does? Unless He did so, how could He love Himself, play with, serve, cry in seperation of, dote over, feed, pamper, dress, glorify Himself, and gradually reach the prema-parAkAshThA (height of divine love) in varying degrees - bhAv rati ulhAs prema rAga mAna ati ruDha bhAv mahabhav , in aishwarya (reverential mood with knowledge of Lord's oppulence and magnanimosity) , madhurya (devoid of sense of Lord's oppulent nature), in various relations (rasa) (parental, friendship, servitude, conjugal, neutral) and sub-emotions (veer ras - adventurous rivalry, kAruNya - compassion, krodh - animosity and enmity or anger - like KaMsa ... and numerous permutations combinations of these)

How could He taste the primary secondary tertiary rasa (moods) and variety of bhAvas (not just devotional), through His creation?

OK you may attack this all you want

_/\_
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi

[smaranam]

So, back to the jiva shakti. TaTastha** shakti (marginal potency) of the Supreme Lord, Supreme Absolute Truth.

-------
**taTastha = on the taTa . taTa = shore, border, edge, fence. taTashtha = as if sitting on the shore between the material land and spiritual ocean, so as to tend to go in either direction.

[note added in the end]

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya