how is turiya blissful?

[seekinganswers]

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?


Please forgive me if I seem argumentative, I don't mean to challenge others faith but I want to know more about this.


Namaste

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?


Please forgive me if I seem argumentative, I don't mean to challenge others faith but I want to know more about this.

You ask a reasonable question...the answer can come both technically and emperically ( by one's observation).

Technically it is said śiva is never without śakti or consciousness is not without joy or ānanda. It (ānanda) is considered an attribute of ātman or brahman in the vedānta. Yet within kaśmir śaivism it is explained via the śiva & śakti relationship.

Now emperically it comes via one's own experience. The pickle is, being fully absorbed in th 4th (turīya) one may not experience this joy as an object of perception. Why so ? Because one is absorbed in the apparatus of perception - that of awareness. Some report after coming out of this 4th they are balanced , filled with ease, and this is joyful. It is like one resting at night and one says , I rested well, I slept well. It is outside of ones experience ( deep sleep) but is inferred by the balance and calmness this restful time offered the body and mind.
Now this is all together different for one that is established in the 4th, that of knowing Self (ātman) as an experience with eyes open ( activity) or closed ( sleep). Now we are in a different mode were the joy is not fleeting, but can be cognized. A different story indeed.

Please forgive me if I seem argumentative, I don't mean to challenge others faith but I want to know more about this

... by saying hello and goodbye or other words the reader comes to know you are here in good faith and no diatribe is expected. So, a greeting is favorable, and assists in knowing one's intent.


iti śivaṁ

[Mana]

हरिः ओम्


Namaste,


Agni is always present in our body's, it is the plasma that flickers like a flame animating our otherwise material state.

Your skeleton is an electric antenna, and every ounce of our fat is electrically conductive through means of piezoelectric
effect and longitudinal current; the same as our nerves, within this structure of body, Agni exists as its perception as well
its animation, through waves of longitudinal current; suspending upon its self your thought, as its belief.

The Agni of the stomach is caused by the fires of digestion (acid releases electrons exactly like a battery), this is regulated
by the heart, in a deep nervous connection.

When you want for absolutely nothing and you are aware that this Agni drives you, for the most part, in all your thoughts
and actions. Then, rather than having any constant objective need for actionto avoid thoughts; or residing in a subjective,
questioning state, filled with doubt and angst. One might reside in God Conciousness.

There is a slow burn from inside, a glowing, that of an awareness, of which it is its own realisation. The presence of this
knowledge, not in its knowing but in its perception, is rather like sitting beside a beautiful open log fire; whilst it is very
cold and wet, outside.

In the presence of God; consciousness of God is undoubtedly the cause of reality.


praṇāma

mana


ॐ नमः शिवाय

[wundermonk]

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?

Firstly, one has to be convinced that such a thing as an immutable, changeless pure consciousness devoid of any object/intentionality exists. In Indian philosophy, there are two views of consciousness straddling the realism/idealism divide.

Realist schools of philosophy (Nyaya/Mimamsa) believe that such a thing as "pure consciousness" devoid of objects simply does NOT exist. For consciousness to be, there have to be atleast three things that click simultaneously - subject, object and means of knowledge. While this may seem intuitively true, there are very strong objections that can be made about this world view.

Idealist schools of philosophy (some interpretations of Samkhya/Advaita) believe that the essence of our souls is itself "pure consciousness" that is immutable and changeless. This was called the saksin. The Advaitin, specifically, will bring sruthi pramana in support of this, and also has a series of dialectics in support of this view. Primarily, the dialectics in support of this has to do with the analysis of dreamless deep sleep. In dreamless deep sleep, if there is no consciousness since there are no objects of which we are conscious, how exactly are we able to say "Ah, I had a good sleep"? Who exactly is this "I" that had a good sleep?

[seekinganswers]

Thank you. I really appreciate everyone's reply and I'm going to read more into the Mandukya Upanishads to see if it helps me have a clearer understanding.

[Twilightdance]

This has been covered before. This is why Advaita has been criticized as veiled Buddhism as their concept of Moksha does not appear to be different from the void.

Anyway, the short answer is, this is not within the purview of logic. It is something you accept as an article lof faith.

It is quite different from buddhistic void which is existential and not a transcendental uncognizable absolute void (if u say so, but turiya would be cirrevt and it is not said to be void) of advaita which must also be paradoxically experienced in an absolute samadhi. Samadhi in buddhism arise out of samatha or concentration. They are more refined state than ordinary consciousness, but no more enlightened than state of enjoying my coffee..so is nirvikalpa samadhi of advaita. Enlightenment in buddhism is existential awakening to dependent arising through insight, not samadhi. In biddhist nirvana one does not need to loose senses in a 4th state beyond sleep but simply see world as it is which is blissfull, although buddha crossed all levels of jnana and samadhi through samatha.

Confusion that advaita is buddhism is really confusion of hindus to fail to understand buddhism. The use similar trrminology and similar sounding description of samsara, which obviously advaita stole from buddhism begining with gaudapada.

It is indeed amazing how this least developed of indian philosophis which neither understood vedanta nor had any clue of buddhism came to be recokened as the benchmark of indian intellectual capacity.

[Necromancer]

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?


Please forgive me if I seem argumentative, I don't mean to challenge others faith but I want to know more about this.


Namaste

Namaste and pranams.

My understanding of this, all relates to that word 'blissful' and how people interpret the meaning of that according to their unique worldly experiences.

To say that Turiya is an emotionless state is false, but to say it is an emotional one is also false.

'Pure Awareness' is 'Full Awareness" thus it also includes the total awareness of Maya and all our emotions, only we get to see them for what they truly are but it doesn't mean they are no longer 'there'.

I think the word that would describe it best is 'satisfaction', but a very deep one beyond all measurement of time and worldly dependence. A 'satisfaction' beyond the senses.

All awareness dissolves into Laya, not into 'nothing'....but there's one emotion that always remains; Love.

Therefore, the result of the Turiya state is 'bliss', 'peace' 'joy'...not the actual experiential state itself.

It's very difficult to try and rationalise a concept like this from our perspective.

We do know the effort will not be in vain though, because of all those enlightened Sages and Rishis who have 'been there' and came back to tell us all about it.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Amrut]

Atman is Sat-Chit-Ananda

It is truth, consciousness and bliss. there is no separate observer to observe or feel or experience anything, still it is not a zero state or void.

You are present. To experience anything, you should be present to experience.

e.g. when you are sleeping, your conscious of dream state, so you do not know what is going around you. Maybe thieves are robing your house and you are enjoying your kingdom in dream

the difference between Deep Sleep and samadhi is this consciousness. In deep sleep you are unconscious while in samadhi you are conscious. But you are not separate from consciousness, you are one with it there is no second one.

To experience anything you will need mind. In samadhi, there is no mind and so you cannot express it. Maun (silence) is the only expression that is capable to express Nirvikalp Samadhi.

Advaita does not say everything is zero, it says you are Brahman. It means that you are pure consciousness, but it is beyond mind and so there is no one who can come back describe it.

Sri Ramakrishna gave one e.g.

A salt doll went to measure the depth of ocean. Moment it stepped into ocean, it melted. Now who is left to give information about depth of ocean?


Adi Shankaracharya and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that 'I do not know anything' after one wakes from deep sleep and you say that I had sound (sukh) sleep. So when the mind rises again and the consciousness comes back to body, it experiences deep peace and bliss.

Like shiv.somashekhar has said, since it cannot be described, you will have to believe.

But it is not a dry state or a zero or negative state.

EDIT: Consciousness can exist without mind, but mind cannot exists without consciousness. Mind and intellect is lighted by consciousness, says Sri Ramana Maharshi in 40 verses of Reality.

Aum

[devotee]

Namaste Seeking,

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?

The problem is that you are trying to make rules for a state where you have never been. Turiya i.e. the "Fourth" state of Brahman is the absolute state of Brahman which is devoid of MAyA i.e. without a mind but pure consciousness. So, as all your experiences are relative in this world, you cannot think of anything absolute. This is not awareness with "nothing to be aware of" ... this is because of our conditioned way of thinking that for a Cogniser to exist there must be an object of cognition. When Cogniser exists alone, it alone can Cognise Itself but the absolute state is beyond that. It exists as a state which is Blissful, Peaceful, Pure Consciousness and beyond all duality.

The only way to remove all doubts is to experience that state. Advaita Gurus emphasise upon "experience" ... like Buddha said, "Appo Deepo Bhava" (Be the lighted lamp yourself". All the knowledge is within you ... there is no need to believe anyone ... go within and seek that knowledge. However, for attaining that and taking even one step in that direction, you must believe what the masters say. There is no way out. You must believe the people who have gone to moon to understand what there is. If you are unable to go to the moon and also don't believe what those who went there say ... then you are keeping yourself locked up in a dark room of ignorance.

The masters try to give you an idea of what the Reality is like ... but at the same time also say what you must do to attain that state which is beyond all ignorance. If you have never seen how Ocean looks like and keep negating existence of Ocean sitting in a desert ... even if you win an argument against those who keep saying that Ocean exists ... how does it help you. The existence of Ocean is not dependent on your winning or losing an argument. The only thing that will be certain that you will go from this world in delusion that Ocean doesn't exist.

OM

[brahman]

I have trouble understanding how turiya would be blissful in any sense. My understanding is that there is Pure Awareness and everything including emotions, thoughts, and external stimuli is only "there" because there is awareness of it. But if one were to simply be as pure awareness, with no illusion, no maya, why? Awareness with nothing to be aware of...isn't that essentially unconsciousness?

Namaste

Dear seekinganswerS,

In order to understand this �phenomenon� we should begin again from the �deep sleep� state of consciousness. This is the third in the sequence of the states of consciousness according to the Upanishads, where turiya comes forth.

The State of deep sleep is described in the Upanishads as blissful.

When encountering such an assertion, it is likely that we would take it to mean a state wherein our feeling of pleasure is at its maximum. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it cannot be true. To experience pleasure, there must first exist an I-consciousness capable of doing so. In the state of deep sleep there is no I-consciousness to know what is happening.

A happening or event exists within a time span; it is accompanied by a sequential consciousness that is aware of the beginning of the happening, its development and its final cessation. In the state of deep sleep, no one is aware exactly when he enters it, nor is there awareness of its termination.

Our �awareness� of the non-happening is nothing more than a pre-assumption we make upon waking. Because there is no memory of deep sleep state (or how could there be any memory?) it is called a happy state in comparison with the dream state and wakefulness.

If this be the case we have to admit a break in the contiguity of one�s personal identity. Do we exist or do we not exist in the state of deep sleep? If we exist, what assurance is there to prove it?

How can we prove this mass of consciousness did exist, even though there was no personal awareness of it?

isn't that essentially unconsciousness?

This question can be answered, but only by penetrating into a much deeper and more profound aspect of the self expressed in the �deep sleep� itself.

**************

Now, the forth state is called the �witness� of the other three states.

If a state is to be witnessed, then the witnessing consciousness should also present in that state. The consciousness that is present in the wakeful, dream and deep sleep states cannot be treated as a consciousness separate from all those states. It cannot be classified as the forth in the sense in which the wakeful state can be differentiated from the dream state.

The fourth state is treated therefore as a part and as the whole.

It is the whole because it is present in all experiences.
It can be termed as part only for methodological purpose of contrasting its positive, vertical character with negativity of deep sleep, and the horizontality of the dream and wakeful experiences. Love

.