Hinduism - Other forms of worship

[Viraja]

Namaste,

As per OP's profile, the reason for her joining the forum is 'to discuss spirituality'. I do not find an iota of spiritual talk in this thread. It is a collection of cut and pastes from uninformed sources meant perhaps to bring out a revelation.

Namaste Believer ji,

I am sorry, I have to say if you find the 'avidya' due to ignorance people are suffering from, and say that owing to this factor, their sadhana cannot be recognized as 'spiritual', that is an incorrect attitude! The very-low income group are all suffering from 'avidya' or 'total ignorance'. They cannot learn Sanskrit like us, they cannot recite slokas. But they do their best to strive for betterment by worshiping the divine the way they know! And this is what I tried to say here, in my post. If you say, the Brahmin comparison is not needed, I agree with that, but if you call the entire post, even praising the poor peoples' mode of worship as 'trash', I cannot agree with you. If people abuse others stemming out of their 'avidya', it is wrong, but if they choose to some hard mode of worship stemming from their avidya, in an effort to get rid of it, then their efforts becomes praise-worthy, not 'trashy'.

[philosoraptor]

Sahasranama,

I do not think god evaluates the sadhana as 'tamasic' in these cases - they are not hurting anybody and are spending hard physical labour sincerely in worship of their god! Such hard toil will be rewarded, IMO.

Actually, Viraja, Lord Krishna does classify tapas into three categories and makes reference to the tapas of some groups as indeed being tamAsic:

BG 17.17: This threefold austerity, performed with transcendental faith by men not expecting material benefits but engaged only for the sake of the Supreme, is called austerity in goodness.
BG 17.18: Penance performed out of pride and for the sake of gaining respect, honor and worship is said to be in the mode of passion. It is neither stable nor permanent.
BG 17.19: Penance performed out of foolishness, with self-torture or to destroy or injure others, is said to be in the mode of ignorance.

What this underscores is the need to consult shAstra before engaging in any so-called "tapas." It may seem very good that non-brahmins are performing some kind of austerities. But not all austerities have equal weight and some are simply not prescribed at all. Austerities, like everything else in life, have to be performed for the right reasons. We may imagine that by doing X, it will be very pleasing to the deity, but it is only shAstra that can confirm this. Without shAstric basis, any austerity is at best suspect.

There are many statments in the bhAgavata and viShNu purANas that people in kali-yuga of all classes, races, etc will get the highest goal by the reading of hari-katha and performance of harinAma-sankIrtana. If we want to engage non-brahmins in performing some kind of religious acts we can encourage them in performing activities like these which are based in shAstra, are compatible with tradition, and are directly pleasing to the Lord.

regards,

[Viraja]

Actually, Viraja, Lord Krishna does classify tapas into three categories and makes reference to the tapas of some groups as indeed being tamAsic:



What this underscores is the need to consult shAstra before engaging in any so-called "tapas." It may seem very good that non-brahmins are performing some kind of austerities. But not all austerities have equal weight and some are simply not prescribed at all. Austerities, like everything else in life, have to be performed for the right reasons. We may imagine that by doing X, it will be very pleasing to the deity, but it is only shAstra that can confirm this. Without shAstric basis, any austerity is at best suspect.

There are many statments in the bhAgavata and viShNu purANas that people in kali-yuga of all classes, races, etc will get the highest goal by the reading of hari-katha and performance of harinAma-sankIrtana. If we want to engage non-brahmins in performing some kind of religious acts we can encourage them in performing activities like these which are based in shAstra, are compatible with tradition, and are directly pleasing to the Lord.

regards,

Yes, it is very correct that some modes of worship are not prescribed as per the shastras - at the least, they may bring great personal injury which is not what god wants at all (like 'walk on fire').

But, these very poor classes are all immersed in 'ignorance'. As much as we dislike their mode of worship, they dislike whom they see as 'deity (ies) of the higher classes' - if we advocate bhajans or stotras to them, they most likely will ridicule us back on our face!

That is why, in Vishnu Sahasranama, there is a verse - I forgot the Sanskrit term, but it says, "He who both directly gives boons as well as gives the boon-fulfilling ability to other gods including demigods". Thus these demigods get the boon-fulfilling ability from Sriman Narayana, but they expect their devotees to worship them in their way. But the deity antaryami in all such gods too, namely Narayana, governs the sincerity and the improvement the devotee gets out of these modes of worship and advances them in their next birth accordingly!

[philosoraptor]

Yes, it is very correct that some modes of worship are not prescribed as per the shastras - at the least, they may bring great personal injury which is not what god wants at all.

But, these very poor classes are all immersed in 'ignorance'. As much as we dislike their mode of worship, they dislike whom they see as 'deity (ies) of the higher classes' - if we advocate bhajans or stotras to them, they most likely will ridicule us back on our face!

That is why, in Vishnu Sahasranama, there is a verse - I forgot the Sanskrit term, but it says, "He who both directly gives boons as well as gives the boon-fulfilling ability to other gods including demigods". Thus these demigods get the boon-fulfilling ability from Sriman Narayana, but they expect their devotees to worship them in their way. But the deity antaryami in all such gods too, namely Narayana, governs the sincerity and the improvement the devotee gets out of these modes of worship and advances them in their next birth accordingly!

Even anya-devata worship has to be done according to the shAstras. Where is the shAstric pramANa prescribing self-multilation as a form of tapas? That these people see nArAyaNa as a "brahmin-god" is merely a reflection of their own sickness. It is not our place to prescribe bogus spiritual practices for their upliftment, just to reinforce that sick view of things. If we cannot inspire them to correct action, then we should refrain from praising them for performing incorrect actions.

pranams,

[Viraja]

If we cannot inspire them to correct action, then we should refrain from praising them for performing incorrect actions.

pranams,

I'm not praising their actions, I am praising the effort.

It is said the mode of action in worship is only secondary, what is of prime importance is the effort, the firmness of faith and sincerity in worship. These three, I can see that they have in their worship, and thus my praises for the same.

Besides, what makes you say, head shave, adi pradakshinam, anga pradakshinam, Kaavadi, are all not granted in Shastras? Do you mean to say, all temples of India are granting something for their devotees that has no foundation in Shastras?

[Believer]

Namaste,

I was just comparing the 2 different types of sadhanas.

I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion. A post with no clear mention of its motive, or much in terms of poster's personal thoughts and conclusions leaves it open for different interpretations. It conveyed the wrong message to me as it did to others. I am sorry that your thinking/admiration for the penance by people at the lower rungs of the social/educational ladder did not come through as it should have and we all felt a bit offended. But, now I understand where you are coming from. And this will be a lesson in comprehension for us all.

Pranam.

[Viraja]

Believer ji,

The mistake is mine. I should not have compared and contrasted Sadhanas, especially with an embittered Brahmin population, it does convey a different message.

I am learning as days progress with my forum participation.

[Viraja]

Sorry Necromancer, I didn't get to reply to you earlier this morning:

When I was just a young girl of ten on holidays with my family in Malaysia, I became separated from them during a Thaipusam festival and witnessed the 'Piercing of the Vel' firsthand.

I followed the procession back to the temple and managed to sneak inside and spy...there was no blood...no pain. It defied everything I knew about how human bodies worked.

Really! I thought the Vel piercings would be painful. But even if it weren't, I can safely say that it at best, would be quite bothersome along with the weight of the Kavadi to carry and go on procession, after respective fasts and austerities.

Whilst in that temple, I saw my very first picture of Lord Shiva and just stood there transfixed (and history was born) until a priest/man saw me and took me to the police station where I was reunited with my parents.

I have also seen fire walking in Bali twice.

My connection with Lord Shiva started in this way.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Yours is a very interesting story of attraction to Lord Shiva. I have not witnessed the fire walking but I have seen numerous pictures of it. I have wondered how they do it. To me it is a scary thought.

[Anirudh]

Aspirant,

I am a silent observer these days, but after reading the entire conversation couldn't resist from sharing my view.

A drop of poison will render the pot of milk unusable for human consumption unless we humans turn into VishKanyaas of Kautilyaa force.

Kindly reread the original post, replies, counter replies and ask yourself whether this post has added any net positive value to Hinduism + Bhaarathvarsh and the spiritual practices without scoring a self goal.

Least I expect at HDF are the different variants of sugar coated EVR brand of content which will be used by noble pseudo secular forces to mock at Hinduism and Bhaarathvarsh.

Now kindly don't ask me what is EVR brand of content.

Pranaam.

[philosoraptor]

I'm not praising their actions, I am praising the effort.

It is said the mode of action in worship is only secondary, what is of prime importance is the effort, the firmness of faith and sincerity in worship. These three, I can see that they have in their worship, and thus my praises for the same.

Pranams, Viraja. Where exactly is this stated?

Besides, what makes you say, head shave, adi pradakshinam, anga pradakshinam, Kaavadi, are all not granted in Shastras? Do you mean to say, all temples of India are granting something for their devotees that has no foundation in Shastras?

Asking for shAstric pramANa is not the same thing as saying there is no shAstric support. The burden of proof is on those who wish to introduce a different practice. I know, many of these practices have been around for centuries. But so too have been other practices like caste-related tensions and so on. We cannot grant that merely antiquity makes the practice genuine. Our authority is shruti, purANas, and itihAsas. If one is not ethically required to authenticate his practice based on these sources, then one can postulate any bizarre practice, practice it sincerely, and challenge the nay-sayers to find the evidence disproving it.