Hinduism - Other forms of worship

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I feel like breaking my self-imposed HDF fast for a moment to comment in this thread. Hinduism is vast. It crosses cultures, languages, classes, etc. Murugan worship and kavadi have been around for a long time. In TN, Malaysia, Fiji, South Africa, Mauritius, its common. So are many other penances. It's not just the 'low, uneducated, poor' classes either. It's a practice ... a legitimate practice. Not of all sects, for sure, but certainly an essential part of the Murugan cult. Palani.org is a good site for further study.

There are many reasons, of which 3 are common:
1) the deal ... a devotee prayers for better health of a relative, more spiritual insight, etc., and gets it. Within that prayer is a vow of taking kavadi if the prayer is answered. So then the kavadi is performed as per the vow, just like the vow of staying married for an entire lifetime is upheld.
2) repentance - devotee does something out of anger, stupidity, and feels guilt ... in a moment of rage they spoke harshly or slapped their own child, they got involved with the wrong crowd, committed some crime, etc. so they do the kavadi to eliminate the guilt
3) clearing the way ... before a major project, devotee intuits troubles ahead... like a year of schooling, so they, in a sense, pre-pay.

There are other reasons, but these are the 3 most common. It is amongst the Saiva Murugan community, and has lost some popularity in TN because of British and western influence. 'Strange' customs don't fit our ways. (The British made sun-dance, a similar rite for plains Indians in Canada illegal, while simultaneously intentionally spreading smallpox, yet didn't see the irony.)

Has anyone here actually done kavadi? Or is the knowledge all from looking at pictures, or viewing as an outsider? Do you know how it feels? Do you know if prayers get answered? Do you know the preparation, the ending, what's done by the (Brahmin) priests with the milk carried by the kavadi bearers? Is it all just some guessing game? How much do you really know, to comment at all?

Certainly its not an intellectual process. It's a spiritual process, perhaps an emotional one.

Aum Namasivaya

[Anirudh]

Namaste EM,
Our rituals and customs have profound scientific importance. Have heard that the cow dung Mezhukuthal can protect from harmful radiation.
Also I have seen poomidhi ritual and understand the science behind it.
Won't be able to access palani.org for few days, so can you share the history and science behind this kaavadi especially the Alagu Kutthum ritual in a simple statements.

[Equinox]

Vannakkam Viraja

I understand where you're coming from now and sorry if I sounded harsh. I was offended when you grouped all non-Brahmins together and then saying that this was clearly a "low class, servant-class, poorer-classes" act. You made it look like all non-Brahmins do the piercing and fire-walking act. That was wrong. You could have just said, "lower class" or "untouchable" acts, if you really wanted to. Using the term "non-Brahmin", and then showing such acts, would only portray the wrong picture. What about upper and middle-class non-Brahmins? They have their own rituals too and most if not all are well-versed in proper "high culture" worship and rituals.

I visit the Thaipusam celebrations in Batu Caves almost every year just to observe. It's a tourist attraction. Millions of people, locals of all races and tourists alike, come to watch. And there are some Chinese who pierce and take milk pots too. It's multicultural. Hindus of all classes and castes carry milk pots and kavadis. You can Google and Youtube for photos and videos.

But obviously, like you mentioned, piercing and fire-walking are entirely a lower class domain, done only by them (I don't like to use the term "lower class", but don't have any other choice of words). I feel that that these acts are their way of showing their strength. It is their way of showing penance too, like how their own ancestors have been doing for generations, and we don't have the right to change that for them. If they enjoy doing it and feel it is their unique way of showing devotion, who are we to talk of showing them the "proper" way? We sound like Christian missionaries here. My suggestion is to let them be. Sooner or later they would realise themselves, if they feel it is wrong. But I feel it is their way and let them do it anyway. We all have our own ways, isn't it?

And Ganga Maiyaaa! The stuff they do is scary to watch. When I was younger I usually had phobia watching them but now I'm ok. Some acts were banned by the government, like swinging a huge sword around in trance in imitation of a village deity, either Muniandy, Maduraiveeran, Karupanaswamy, Muniswaran, etc. You know how it is. Typical Indian village festival scene. Have you seen those who pierce hooks with dozens of limes all over their bodies? And those who pull miniature chariots by hooks pierced to their backs? And yes like Necromancer mentioned, there is no blood and pain because they get into a trance while the piercing is done. Later when the hooks are removed, there won't be any scars too.

Some of them are fake and don't get any trance, just act like they do. It's clownish and embarrasses other Hindus.

But, these very poor classes are all immersed in 'ignorance'. As much as we dislike their mode of worship, they dislike whom they see as 'deity (ies) of the higher classes' - if we advocate bhajans or stotras to them, they most likely will ridicule us back on our face!

As these lower classes become more educated, they definitely improve and seem to forget their low class acts too. Instead they start imitating acts of the higher classes. Be careful of what you wish for. It might backfire.

They enjoy condemning the higher classes, especially the Brahmin and aristocratic classes, but when given the chance, wouldn't mind imitating us themselves.

You mentioned that, "if 'we' advocate bhajans or stotras to them, they most likely will ridicule us back on our face!" As I mentioned earlier, since they are becoming more educated, they are starting to realise the differences between them and the upper classes. So the smart ones would see this as an opportunity to gain footing in the higher echelons, and wouldn't mind learning the ways of the upper classes. When all of them become educated and familiar with "high culture", they'll know what they're doing now is wrong. Can you predict what happens next?

Philosoraptor: What are you going on and on about? You know that these are not learned Hindus. So obviously they would do it only their way, which they think is a great act of penance. They are on their way towards becoming educated and then they'll obviously give such practices up in the next few generations, as we can definitely expect.


Aum Namah Shivaya

[Sahasranama]

Actually, Viraja, Lord Krishna does classify tapas into three categories and makes reference to the tapas of some groups as indeed being tamAsic:

BG 17.17: This threefold austerity, performed with transcendental faith by men not expecting material benefits but engaged only for the sake of the Supreme, is called austerity in goodness.
BG 17.18: Penance performed out of pride and for the sake of gaining respect, honor and worship is said to be in the mode of passion. It is neither stable nor permanent.
BG 17.19: Penance performed out of foolishness, with self-torture or to destroy or injure others, is said to be in the mode of ignorance.

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

Tapas can be classified in three gunas. Not all people follow sattvik tapas. Tamasik tapas is not limited to Shaiva/ Murugan cults. Pancharatra vaishnavas also have tamasik forms of tapas like branding the body with hot metals like an animal. The vedas aren't purely sattvik either (traigunya vishaya veda). Sattva, rajas and tamas forms of tapas are all prescribed in various shastras for different individuals.

[Twilightdance]

RSS Agent

Really?

RSS is not nearly as strong opinionated as you and are glad now to put up muslim faces, oppose narendra modi and have always held gandhi in high regards.

Only real Hindtva person was Veer Savarakar. It ended with him. And he was an atheist

[Sahasranama]

It was used as sarcasm, as every Hindu is being accused of being an RSS agent on Indian news channels.

I'll change it to Internet Hindu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2rW8Z-ayts

[Anirudh]

Namaste Sahasranama,

The Internet Hindu

I have come across only two breed of Hindu.
1. Saffron terrorist when he doesn't take filth lying down.
2. Secular/Tolerant Indian when he applaud and welcome the filth directed against his believes.

So what does this internet Hindu mean? Can you shed some light on his characteristics?

[Viraja]

Vannakkam: I feel like breaking my self-imposed HDF fast for a moment to comment in this thread. Hinduism is vast. It crosses cultures, languages, classes, etc. Murugan worship and kavadi have been around for a long time. In TN, Malaysia, Fiji, South Africa, Mauritius, its common. So are many other penances. It's not just the 'low, uneducated, poor' classes either. It's a practice ... a legitimate practice. Not of all sects, for sure, but certainly an essential part of the Murugan cult. Palani.org is a good site for further study.

There are many reasons, of which 3 are common:
1) the deal ... a devotee prayers for better health of a relative, more spiritual insight, etc., and gets it. Within that prayer is a vow of taking kavadi if the prayer is answered. So then the kavadi is performed as per the vow, just like the vow of staying married for an entire lifetime is upheld.
2) repentance - devotee does something out of anger, stupidity, and feels guilt ... in a moment of rage they spoke harshly or slapped their own child, they got involved with the wrong crowd, committed some crime, etc. so they do the kavadi to eliminate the guilt
3) clearing the way ... before a major project, devotee intuits troubles ahead... like a year of schooling, so they, in a sense, pre-pay.

There are other reasons, but these are the 3 most common. It is amongst the Saiva Murugan community, and has lost some popularity in TN because of British and western influence. 'Strange' customs don't fit our ways. (The British made sun-dance, a similar rite for plains Indians in Canada illegal, while simultaneously intentionally spreading smallpox, yet didn't see the irony.)

Has anyone here actually done kavadi? Or is the knowledge all from looking at pictures, or viewing as an outsider? Do you know how it feels? Do you know if prayers get answered? Do you know the preparation, the ending, what's done by the (Brahmin) priests with the milk carried by the kavadi bearers? Is it all just some guessing game? How much do you really know, to comment at all?

Certainly its not an intellectual process. It's a spiritual process, perhaps an emotional one.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EMji,

It is a great post! I think I should have waited till someone with your knowledge opened this topic sometime, I didn't have as much knowledge to state about each of the spiritual practices - fire-walking, piercing, head shave, step-by-step circumambulation (adi pradakshinam) and so forth. Owing to the voluminous amount of opposition raised, sometimes I got sidetracked and my responses could not be clear. Yours is the kind of feedback I just wanted to hear. I just wanted to learn more, the motives and experiences of these practitioners. I wanted to bring respect to these forms of worship as how many millions do them with so much devotion?!

Murugan is considered 'deva deva' - the deity who is above all devas, my knowledge of Kavadi though comes only from pictures, I know millions do it for Karthigai, Thai poosam and other important days for Murugan worship in the arupadai-veedu houses, I have not had a chance to view it. Thus, you can say I was uninformed about who participates in it, my idea was such that similar to the Iyappa 'Irumudi' celebration, mostly lower-income group people participated in it. But I stand corrected now.

I wish I can do the "kaavadi" sometimes.. I am honest about it. Because the procedure itself seems like it will bring great internal humility and peace. Similarly the rest of the practices also. But only thing I do not like is that while people are going to so much extremes doing such difficult-to-accomplish modes of worships, they are not giving up animal sacrifice alongside. If this also could be accomplished, they would make so much spiritual progress quickly! If anything at all needs to be educated to people about such practices, it is the avoidance of animal sacrifices only. I know that Kaavadi does not involve any animal sacrifice, but I am not sure about 'walk on fire' - I think it involves animal sacrifice..

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste EMji,

It is a great post! I think I should have waited till someone with your knowledge opened this topic sometime, I didn't have as much knowledge to state about each of the spiritual practices - fire-walking, piercing, head shave, step-by-step circumambulation (adi pradakshinam) and so forth. Owing to the voluminous amount of opposition raised, sometimes I got sidetracked and my responses could not be clear. Yours is the kind of feedback I just wanted to hear. I just wanted to learn more, the motives and experiences of these practitioners. I wanted to bring respect to these forms of worship as how many millions do them with so much devotion?!

Murugan is considered 'deva deva' - the deity who is above all devas, my knowledge of Kavadi though comes only from pictures, I know millions do it for Karthigai, Thai poosam and other important days for Murugan worship in the arupadai-veedu houses, I have not had a chance to view it. Thus, you can say I was uninformed about who participates in it, my idea was such that similar to the Iyappa 'Irumudi' celebration, mostly lower-income group people participated in it. But I stand corrected now.

I wish I can do the "kaavadi" sometimes.. I am honest about it. Because the procedure itself seems like it will bring great internal humility and peace. Similarly the rest of the practices also. But only thing I do not like is that while people are going to so much extremes doing such difficult-to-accomplish modes of worships, they are not giving up animal sacrifice alongside. If this also could be accomplished, they would make so much spiritual progress quickly! If anything at all needs to be educated to people about such practices, it is the avoidance of animal sacrifices only. I know that Kaavadi does not involve any animal sacrifice, but I am not sure about 'walk on fire' - I think it involves animal sacrifice..

Vannakkam: We did discuss some. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...ghlight=kavadi

Kavadi does not involve animal sacrifice. I do admit that in some cases, and maybe places, it has degenerated into a 'tough guy fest' but organisers work hard at getting that out of it. For example, in Mauritius the Tamil Temple Federation strongly discourages the pulling of carts.

But it really is for everyone. Not easy to do, because you really need some expert guidance. I know of only 2 places in North America ... at Val Morin in Quebec, and a temple in Toronto.

@Equinox ... Maybe in Malaysia it has deteriorated into spectator sport, the high classes watching the savages, but in other places like TN and Mauritius that is not the case. The Palani site states millionaires do it alongside common folk, and in Mauritius the education minister in the government, as well as other high ranking officials have done it, and continue to do it.

In Mauritius Thai Pusan Cavadee is a National Holiday.

In my opinion, the heaviest tapas and the most difficult is celibacy/renunciation, and that seems quite admired by us, of course in its truest and purest form, not the fakery that goes on today.

Aum Namasivaya

[Viraja]

But obviously, like you mentioned, piercing and fire-walking are entirely a lower class domain, done only by them (I don't like to use the term "lower class", but don't have any other choice of words). I feel that that these acts are their way of showing their strength. It is their way of showing penance too, like how their own ancestors have been doing for generations, and we don't have the right to change that for them. If they enjoy doing it and feel it is their unique way of showing devotion, who are we to talk of showing them the "proper" way? We sound like Christian missionaries here. My suggestion is to let them be. Sooner or later they would realise themselves, if they feel it is wrong. But I feel it is their way and let them do it anyway. We all have our own ways, isn't it?

Precisely my thoughts too!

And Ganga Maiyaaa! The stuff they do is scary to watch. When I was younger I usually had phobia watching them but now I'm ok. Some acts were banned by the government, like swinging a huge sword around in trance in imitation of a village deity, either Muniandy, Maduraiveeran, Karupanaswamy, Muniswaran, etc. You know how it is. Typical Indian village festival scene. Have you seen those who pierce hooks with dozens of limes all over their bodies? And those who pull miniature chariots by hooks pierced to their backs? And yes like Necromancer mentioned, there is no blood and pain because they get into a trance while the piercing is done. Later when the hooks are removed, there won't be any scars too.

Some of them are fake and don't get any trance, just act like they do. It's clownish and embarrasses other Hindus.

Yes, sometimes, people in the name of worship endanger themselves and others. I read an article sometime back in a popular e-magazine, of how an old lady, in worship for some female deity, is 'frying the sweets for the deity using her own hands for the spatula' - yes, she is dipping her hand straight into the boiling, terribly hot oil and putting the stuff in, turning it over, getting it out - they say it does not cause any injury to this lady but it has the danger of tipping over and spilling the entire hot oil over her if at any point she felt the unbearable heat and secondly, it is such a bad example for others - such acts are indeed clownish and should not be allowed at all.

As these lower classes become more educated, they definitely improve and seem to forget their low class acts too. Instead they start imitating acts of the higher classes. Be careful of what you wish for. It might backfire.

They enjoy condemning the higher classes, especially the Brahmin and aristocratic classes, but when given the chance, wouldn't mind imitating us themselves.

You mentioned that, "if 'we' advocate bhajans or stotras to them, they most likely will ridicule us back on our face!" As I mentioned earlier, since they are becoming more educated, they are starting to realise the differences between them and the upper classes. So the smart ones would see this as an opportunity to gain footing in the higher echelons, and wouldn't mind learning the ways of the upper classes. When all of them become educated and familiar with "high culture", they'll know what they're doing now is wrong. Can you predict what happens next?

Aum Namah Shivaya

To be honest with you, I do not wish them changed at all. It is not a selfish wish, I certainly would welcome them to worship using stotras and so forth, but what they are doing as such will be rewarded too. To god, not the language or mode of worship are important, it is the sincerity, faith and effort that matters - we see Kannappa Naayanar, stepping his foot on shivalinga for a placeholder to where the second eye belongs and then trying to pluck out his 2nd eye -- Lord shiva immediately appears and blesses him.