The Doer

[Amrut]

@satay and to all those who are interested.

When I was searching for sanskrit verses on net so that I do not have to re-type them again and then added your query to find wor-to-word translation of BG by Shri Ramanuja, I found this link

http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/Raman...ita_bhasya.htm

It gives word-to-word translation. Since Ramanuja bhasa is very different, I am not able to judge it whether the interpretation is correct or not, as it is so different from shankar bhasya

It does not have detailed commentary.

Another link would be that which @smaranam gave in one of his thread on his / her thoughts on BG

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/

Link to chapter 18: http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/chapter-18.html

@philosoraptor. Thanks for the link for the blog, though the down is not working, blog is very informative.

Aum

[wundermonk]

Since I am currently only reading ramanuja's commentary would appreciate your explanations from that pov only so to keep it simple for my simple engineering mind.

If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

Ok. Let us not confuse things and keep it simple.

I offer you Ramanuja's commentary from Brahmasutras 2:3:33-41.

Per Ramanuja, these sutras affirm the agency of the jiva. The following are his arguments in favour of it:

(1)Scriptural injunctions otherwise would be meaningless. Vedic injunctions have no significance in respect of insentient prakriti.

(2)Sruthi support:

It taking the organs, moves about as it pleases in its own body

Intelligence performs sacrifices, and it also performs all acts

Intelligence, here, refers to the jiva, per Ramanuja.

(3)Admission of knowledge, agency and ability to reap results does NOT affect the jiva's immutable nature. Any modification that takes place, only takes place to the attributive knowledge (dharma bhuta jnana) of the jiva. Jnana is the jiva's essential attribute, for sure, but the jiva's svarupa essence itself is unaffected. Agency, feelings of pleasure/pain, etc. are in Visishtadvaita modifications of jnana and hence do not affect the jiva's essence. The jiva is the asraya or substrate for jnana. And knowledge, agency and ability to feel pain/pleasure are attributed to the jiva because of its status as asraya.

(4)On the question of whether the jiva's agency is dependent or independent of Paramatman, the answer is that it is dependent. But, the jiva's agency is ALSO dependent on other special causes such as past karma, indriyas, time, nature, etc. Yet, none of these are considered to affect the agency of jiva. Then, why should the opponent only single out Paramatman's role as a general cause?

[jignyAsu]

Please watch this for further clarifications to Sri Ramanuja's views from Sri Vellukudi Krishnan Swamy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fscvOuOPjGc
(Skip 10-15mins to get to the lecture.)

As wundermonk says, Sri Ramanuja points out that all shAstric injunctions go to the Atma giving him the choice, as otherwise they are a waste. "I am the doer" should be "We are the doers" to include the Gunas, karma, body and also finally the supreme Paramatma who controls everything else. If he doesn't have this attitude then he is an ahankari, meaning, he identifies with his body.

Here's a thought. Did you know I could swim upto 25 miles/hour 40 years back? This was because I was a dolphin in my last birth! Now, why can't "I" swim that fast now...or do "I" want to swim at all?

[philosoraptor]

Here's a thought. Did you know I could swim upto 25 miles/hour 40 years back? This was because I was a dolphin in my last birth! Now, why can't "I" swim that fast now...or do "I" want to swim at all?

You're only saying that because you think we're impressed. Well, I'm a 71-million-year-old, philosophically-inclined, talking dinosaur, and you don't see me bragging about it. Do ya? Just sayin' is all....

[atanu]

Namaste,
I have been reading the 'Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhasya' published by Sri Ramkrishna Math and I have a few questions that I am hoping someone can clarify.

In chapter 18, specifically in verses 14 and onwards there is a concept of 'an agent' or 'karta'. It is stated in verses 16 and 17 that

16: he who sees only the self as the agent on account of uncultivated understanding he of wicked mind, does not see at all and,

17: he who is free from the notion 'I am the doer' and whose understanding is not tainted slays not though he slays all these men nor is he bound.

Further there is a discussion of 'knowledge, object of knowledge and the knower.

In verse 19, it is stated that knowledge, act and the agent are declared in the science of Gunas to be of three kinds according to the difference in the Gunas and lord Krishna then proceeds to talk about these separately from verse 20 to 28.

Previously in verses 13 and 14 the bhasya gives a purport explaining that 'supreme self' alone is the agent working through body.

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?

What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.

My confusion is this: who is this classification of talked about in verse 26 to 28? Of the individual self or the supreme self since supreme self is the only agent/karta and the individual self seems to be only the observer or knower?

My underlying confusion is about who is actually performing the acts, the individual self or the supreme self? Or both? If individual self is not the doer and not actually doing anything then what is his role?

The topic pulled me in.

Shri Ramanuja's teaching is:

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-05-08.html
One who has realised the nature of the atma or soul knows the true nature of reality. Such a person reflects that through the senses of perception such as eyes and ears, the senses of action such as the voice, the pranas or life breaths, the physical body functions with all its corresponding objects; but factually I am separate as an individual consciousness from all these activities and virtually do not do any of these actions. The conception of doership is derived from contact with the senses which a living entity is coerced to accept from time immemorial due to past actions in past lives. But this doership is not an essential attribute of the atma and thus it is not necessary to accept. So I shall not accept it as being my essential nature. Thus does one situated in atma tattva or soul realisation reflect.

The nature of Atman, whether individual or the universal, is of pure intelligence/awareness. In this light, all organs, including the mind (karta having three guna nature) function, just as we function only because there is sun. The true nature of Atman is to impart awareness. This view is same in VA and Advaita.

Neither the Supreme Self nor the Individual Self are the doers. Supreme Self is, however, the doer in the sense that actions initiate in the Supreme Mind, which also has three guna characteristics.

Hope this is Ok.

Some discussion on this:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/ar...ll94/0062.html

[atanu]

Namaste,

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?

That the atman is non-doer is the liberating knowledge. However, in ajnana, the individual ego-mind is the doer. The obligatory work is for the individual ego mind alone.

[smaranam]

If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

To love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. To be in His loving service.
To be His friend companion.
Parameshwar is bhAv-bhukelA

jivera svarUp haya krishNera nitya dAs
The eternal intrinsic nature, svabhAv of the jIvAtmA is to be an eternal servant of KRshNa
- Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

_/\_

BaDo natakhata hai re mero kAro Kanhaiyaa ...

[Amrut]

To love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. To be in His loving service.
To be His friend companion.
Parameshwar is bhAv-bhukelA

jivera svarUp haya krishNera nitya dAs
The eternal intrinsic nature, svabhAv of the jIvAtmA is to be an eternal servant of KRshNa
- Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

_/\_

BaDo natakhata hai re mero kAro Kanhaiyaa ...

Namaste ji,

Genuine doubts:

1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -

2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??

3. Agent = MAdhyama (medium / instrument) - Is this correct
So everything happens through you. someone else is controlling you

Hari Aum
Jai shri Krushna

[jignyAsu]

Pranams,

You're only saying that because you think we're impressed. Well, I'm a 71-million-year-old, philosophically-inclined, talking dinosaur, and you don't see me bragging about it. Do ya? Just sayin' is all....

This was just an example my friend to illustrate how the GuNas/body are the primary cause of action. Not that I think I was a dolphin or know my past lives....

1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -

My understanding...Jiva is the initiator and not the performer of sAttvik actions. Therefore the ShAstras take pain in guiding him.

2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??

Doing for Krishna with the understanding that I am not the doer is what is required. Is offering a flower such a simple thing? God protected the Vedas, made so many Rishis like Sri VyAsa to be born, made so many Bhaktas, then Acharyas, protected them, motivated them and preserved their teachings, helped so many noble souls to preserve our temples etc, Himself appeared so many time and clarified. Then finally I got this body/mind due to Karma..even after this so many prayers, devotees, wonderful people made me offer my first flower to Him. So am I the doer? Recognizing these things only, did our Acharyas say to Bhagavan: "How can I dare to claim that I did all this...It is only You who has made me do this."

[smaranam]

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Namaste

1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -

Not sAttvic actions. The divine actions "are simply happening."
That was the whole idea of the magenta, green and brown (pl. see post#11).
Also, AtanuJi's posts clear this - #25,26.
Jiva situated in her true svarUp is beyond material guNas (magenta, divine). So the sense "I am doing this sAttvic karma" (green-to-brown) is not there . Jiva is fascilitating, you can say being the instrument. Like a pen, or flute, sitar.

2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??

I think Jignyasuji explained that quite well. NishkAm karma can truly happen in KRshNa consciousness. When it is done for God, you are not in the picture, just a tiny cell or part of the Whole machine.

3. Agent = MAdhyama (medium / instrument) - Is this correct
So everything happens through you. someone else is controlling you
Hari Aum
Jai shri Krushna

Yes.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa