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Thread: The Doer

  1. #11

    Re: The Doer

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    smaranam is saying that it is only prakrti that is the doer. In that case both param atma and jiva are simply observers then?
    What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.
    Namaste,

    Please note the different statements in post #2.
    Jiva is simply an observer when she is on the spiritual side of the fence.
    Jiva, in her purest state, is not mistakenly taking the doership upon herself.

    So, first we have to define "doership." Please also notice the [relatively passive or subtle-action] verbs in green in my earlier post (#2).
    Choose
    turn inwards and pray
    refer to
    improve
    watch
    monitor

    These have clearly been attributed to the jiva. Notice that these verbs are subtler than "dance, jump, read, sing, plant, build, speak, shout, hit, fight, hug..."

    The brown and green is the distinction between lower prakRti and higher prakRti. The verbs in green do not directly result in an action or do not make a direct & immediate impact on the world.

    One may also argue, "The paramAtmA is the witness, so He is witnessing, which is also a verb or an action"
    We know that this is not the implication of the teachings.

    What RAmAnujAchArya means by "dependant doer" is the verbs in green, but not brown, but those also have to be sanctioned by paramAtmA. Not a blade of grass can move without His sanctioning. Please see BG 7.6

    No servant of Shriman NArAyaN Hari will say "I am such a good singer/dancer/speaker/writer" not even in VaikuNTha. Why? Isn't the jiva singing, writing, dancing, speaking, decorating ? Or is she really?
    Not even "I am a [adjective] devotee" , because the pure-devotee-jiva is [whatever] devotee[or-not] only by NArAyaN's grace.
    Is she serving? Perhaps, but the bhAv is "I am striving to serve, not sure if truly being of service."

    --

    I hope the green and brown makes the terms "sAttvic, rAjasic and tAmasic kartA" clearer.

    The jiva is enabling prakRti to be a sAttvic kartA insomuch as she is monitoring the guNas with paramAtmA's help, but not indulging in them. This also tells us that while the jiva is dependant on paramAtmA and His grace, she has to "strive" to "be her best for paramAtmA"

    **The difference between thinking oneself to be the horses-and-chariot instead of the charioteer holding the reigns.

    Notice the difference:
    "KRshNa is so beautifully dressed today. Actually, the ornaments are beautified the moment this VRndAvanChandra GiridhAri wears them."
    "The temple looks spotlessly clean. Of Course, the house of the Supreme Lord cannot be otherwise."

    "The guNas are working in harmony and the mind and intellect of the pujari went in the right direction -- sadbuddhi was granted."

    "I am an expert at dressing up KRshNa! I am so good about keeping the temple clean."

    We want to be on the magenta-purple band of the rainbow. We want to truly be able to say "VAsudeva sarvam iti" , not even sense ourselves to be "a facilitator of sAttvic karma" - as "my intellect ran in the correct direction"

    The vraja-vAsIs (residents of Vraja dhAm) are not aware of themselves. They do not realize that they were the instrument that made such nice mAkhan, or garland, or joke or story for KRshNa. They are simply overwhelmed with love. They are involuntarily motivated to move in the directions that make KRshNa happy, that make His beauty and love radiate towards all and make all happy. They want to give KRshNa to others.


    _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
    Last edited by smaranam; 08 February 2013 at 04:22 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  2. #12
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    Re: The Doer

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste and thank you for the replies.

    I have to re read verses 14 to 16 as some of you have suggested.

    My own thoughts about this particular Bhasya are leaning towards what Philosolaptor and indiaspirituality has said and what wundermonk has implied i.e. the jiva is the doer but a dependent one. I think to keep consistent with the bhasya this is how one has to understand it.

    That said, as we can see even on this thread there is a difference of understanding who is actually doing something and who is inactive observer e.g. smaranam is saying that it is only prakrti that is the doer. In that case both param atma and jiva are simply observers then? I should dare to say that this understanding is not consistent with what sri ramanuja is saying. Also, if prakri is the doer, why does jiva have to suffer or benefit through this body for the actions of the prakri?
    Namaste,

    Few things to note

    1. From Maya everything, including physical bodies and Jiva, was created. Maya influences all of us.

    So prakruti does everything. Doer 'associates' these actions with himself and so retains individuality. Jnani does not associate himself with actions. - remember that this statement is of Jnani. Jnani sees that prakruti is doing everything. Jnani is the observer.

    2. Can we say that Prakruti influences Jiva to do karma - this needs to be thought.

    3. Just believing that everything is done by God is not enough. We think that everything is done by god or by the wish of god and then, as usual, get engrossed in work, forgetting God. So even if we think that we are doing nishkama-karma, we are actually doing sakAm karma.

    Due to this, even though prakruti does karma, Jiva identifies itself with this karma.

    So it is not the karma, but the identification / association with karma - kartA bhAva, that binds you with karma and makes you to suffer / enjoy (bhoga) it's fruits.

    The bhAva that - i am doing karma - is the culprit.

    Now, one should detach himself / herself from karma and body, by being observer (shAkshI bhAva) - shakshi is also a bhava.

    By doing this you do not even identify yourself as the doer and enjoyer of fruit (Jiva / Mind / subtle body), but you are aware that someone else is doing this work. By being an observer, one detaches itself fro mthing that he/she is not. By being aware of brahman one becomes or knows or realizes that 'I am Brahman'

    4. jiva and Ishwara are both upAdhi - Brahman is observer.

    If you remove panch mahAbhuta fro mJiva and 6 qualities of Ishwara, what remains is Pure Brahman which is attributeless.

    difference between Ishwara / avatar is that

    They are always aware of their true nature.
    They can materialize at any place and any time.
    They can , at will, go back to tier nirAkAra swarUpa and can take form.

    Ishwar is mAyA-pati (swami) and so controls mAyA (prakrutI) and is not influenced by it like Jiva.

    Jiva is ignorant and does not know that he is brahman.

    ---

    A thought about Maya and Jiva adn individuality

    Now imagine a pot inside pool of water.

    This pool is Brahman [1] and pot is, say, panch mahAbhuta or simply our body which separates individuality. Water is inside pot and outside pot. It is the pot which is separating this water. Now if pot is destroyed, then water inside pot will mix water in the pool.

    ---

    A different standpoint.

    Jiva is the doer, as it is under the influence of Maya (prakruti) and is bound by it. Jiva does not know it's true nature.

    By being aware that someone is doing work, that is not me, then for sure you are not Jiva as you can observe that someone is doing karma. So you are actually Shiva - Brahman.

    But, in general, our consciousness is tied with the mind nad mind is tied with body.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi says that, Atman gives Prakash (power) to buddhi (and Mind) and lights by staying inside buddhi (and mind).

    Actually, mind / buddhi can function because there is atman. But ego, due to ignorance thinks that it is he who is doing karma and in turn generates desires. fruits of karma makes ego (mind) happy or sad this reaction makes him do more work and in turn increases desires. So more action and more fruits . .. the cycle continues.

    It is ahankar that thinks he is doing and so wants to enjoy the fruits. But to do so, ego cannot satisfy by itself. So it takes adhara of body and tries to satisfy desires via 5 senses. Actually mind is subtle than gross objects of world and senses, but it becomes slave of 5 senses, due to 'ego of doership'

    That is why it is said that only by Jnana one attains mukti. One has to remove this wrong-identification.

    ---

    I hope this will make things clear.

    Aum
    IS

    btw, Satay ji, we are having great discussion. After many years, I opened my favourite Gita

    ... and when I was trying to be too technical explaining verse word-by-word, at once I thought I am Yajvan ji

    EDIT: Edited word in blue after @smaranam's correction. Earlier it read: This pool is prakrutI / MAyA / cosmos [1] and pot is ...
    my apologies. At once I though that even maya can be used.
    Last edited by Amrut; 08 February 2013 at 10:00 AM. Reason: corrected a line - changed word in blue
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  3. #13

    Re: The Doer

    Namaste

    These are nice explanations but we are discussing Ramanuj's commentary on Bhagvad Gita which is VishishTAdvaitic in nature, not kevala advaita.

    So a few differences :

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    including physical bodies and Jiva, was created.
    Jiva is ignorant and does not know that he is brahman. ...

    ---
    By being aware that someone is doing work, that is not me, then for sure you are not Jiva as you can observe that someone is doing karma. So you are actually Shiva - Brahman.
    Yes, except for the part about jiva being "created by Maya" and then vanishing from the scene altogether.
    The liberated jiva is Brahman, and shiva (auspicious). However, in Ramanuj language that would be a siddha jIva (free,liberated) as opposed to the baddha jIva (bound to material nature, entangled in doership).

    A thought about Maya and Jiva adn individuality
    Now imagine a pot inside pool of water.
    This pool is prakruti or cosmos and pot is say panch mahAbhuta or simply our body which separates individuality. Water is inside pot and outside pot. It is the pot which is separating this water. Now if pot is destroyed, then water inside pot will mix water in the pool.
    Well, the pool is actually consciousness or Brahman, not cosmos. Only a fraction of Brahman is the cosmos.

    The water that just got mixed may be distinguished by its relationship with the pool.
    Ganga water - aishwarya-ras, Jamuna water-madhurya-ras, salty water - veer ras/gambhir bhav, sweet water - seva ras , muddy water - vairya bhav, ocean water - vatsalya bhav, waterfall-water - sakhya bhav ...

    So there is pure individuality (like the residents of Vraja - not aware of themselves, but do not cease to exist as individuals)
    and impure individuality (centered around aham bhav and ego, doership, entanglement with material nature, false identification with the body)
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    The vraja-vAsIs (residents of Vraja dhAm) are not aware of themselves. They do not realize that they were the instrument that made such nice mAkhan, or garland, or joke or story for KRshNa. They are simply overwhelmed with love. They are involuntarily motivated to move in the directions that make KRshNa happy, that make His beauty and love radiate towards all and make all happy. They want to give KRshNa to others.
    Some are mothers of Brahman, some are fathers, some are sakha some are sakhi, some are servants, some are enemies, some are rival sakhis, some are ministers, uncles, aunts ... all in combinations of primary, secondary and tertiary rasa.
    But mostly, the liberated jivas can be servants of Bhagavan in some form.

    jivera svarup haya krishNera nitya dAs - Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

    _/\_

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
    Last edited by smaranam; 08 February 2013 at 07:12 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #14
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    Re: The Doer

    @smaranam

    Thank you for your clarification and insightful explanation.

    Yes indeed it is Ramanuja's commentary, so your explanation is correct w.r.t. this thread and so to OP. Sorry for dragging it into Advaita (I do not know Keval Advaita. I just know Advaita ). Jumped in to explain when I saw the question from Janan Kand.

    Just to let you know that cosmos = maya. I meant it this way. If this is a problem with my English translation, please accept my apology.

    Thanks again.

    Namaste

    Jai Shri Krushna
    IS
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: The Doer

    Namaste,

    In case of any issues and for troubleshooting, we can refer to Upanishads.

    Gita is the essence of Upanishads. So everything that is said in Gita has to be found in Upanishads.

    Upanishad is not my cup of tea. Hence it depends upon our more knowledgeable members, and you satay ji, if you wish to find the truth and better interpretation and gain clarity.

    I have one more thought to gain more clarity, but I will type it after reaching home.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  6. #16

    Re: The Doer

    Quote Originally Posted by Indiaspirituality View Post
    Just to let you know that cosmos = maya. I meant it this way. If this is a problem with my English translation, please accept my apology.
    Namaste,

    Usually i have heard this pot-breaking anology being used for Brahman and embodied individuals. So, air/water inside/outside is Brahman, not Maya - subtle difference.

    No problem with your English translation, and no need to apologize.

    I am sure your posts were helpful, just this part about the jiva is different with different schools.

    _/\_

    Jai Shri KRshNa
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: The Doer

    namaste,
    Thanks for the explanations. Since I am currently only reading ramanuja's commentary would appreciate your explanations from that pov only so to keep it simple for my simple engineering mind.

    If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?
    satay

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    Re: The Doer

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste,

    Usually i have heard this pot-breaking anology being used for Brahman and embodied individuals. So, air/water inside/outside is Brahman, not Maya - subtle difference.

    No problem with your English translation, and no need to apologize.

    I am sure your posts were helpful, just this part about the jiva is different with different schools.

    _/\_

    Jai Shri KRshNa
    I agree. Sorry my mistake.

    My apologies.

    @satay

    Sorry for side tracking. I will keep this in mind.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  9. #19
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    Re: The Doer

    Namaste Satay,

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?
    My understanding is this based on Bhagwad Gita and non-classic theistic Samkhya (the ancient version of Samkhya seen in Vedas, VedAnta and Bhagwad Gita). I am not sure, if RAmAnuja too says the same thing or not :

    Jiva is not the observer. The observer is Purusha (AtmA). Jiva is an instrument which is created by Prakriti drawing its reflected Consciousness (as Prakriti by itself is JaDa and cannot act) from its proximity with Purusha for enjoying the fruits of Karma. Jiva's existence is dependent on two things : Prakriti and Purusha (as long as Purusha identifies itself wrongly with Prakriti). Jiva assumes the doership and gets entangled in the network of Karmas.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #20
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    Re: The Doer

    @satay

    General suggestions:

    1. Whichever commentary you read, it is always better to read the commentary which shows word-2-word translation.

    I strongly believe that even the order of words in a sloka has importance. When translating to english, may be lost.

    Avoid reading commentaries which simply give the meaning in a statement without splitting. Even though sometimes the translation maybe true, to avoid any confusion and for gaining clarity, better stick to word-2-word translation, followed by full translation of a sloka.

    2. Double Translation error: When a saint writes a commentary in one language, say, tamil, then another one will translate it in english. Already the thughts of saints are present. The translator will introduce his/her own words or his explanation / meaning, as he/she has understood or have interpreted.

    Better read a copy which is directly translated from sanskrit into your mother tongue.

    3. Only search for other another commentary, if your doubt is not resolved. There is no need to keep reading commentaries by various saint if your goal is just to progress in spirituality and not to achieve mastery over scriptures, et al.

    4. keep repeating over and over again and keep praying to give solution. Do not ignore strength prayer. Each prayer counts. IT also brings you close to God, no matter what path you follow.

    5. If an audio commentary is available by same saint whose book you are reading, then please prefer to listen audio (and if possible video). It has it's advantage. Words, the accent, the way a swami stresses on words and expression (in case of video), are helpful.

    6. Repeat ... Repeat ... Repeat.

    Our mindset changes with passage of time. A sincere seeker is looking for practical solution, which he/she can apply in daily life. Our mind may skip info which it does not find important at that time. Later on, when time passes, you may rise another doubt. So this time, you will find answer in another sloka.

    Again you will not understand completely in one time. So better read it again to have a neck.

    I have experienced this.

    7. Most important point:

    If an idea remains an idea, it is useless (to you), no matter how much impressive it sounds.

    Read with an approach to solve your doubts, gain clarity and apply it in your daily life.

    Even though this post is not related to your question, it will help you. It gives direction. With a new direction and approach, start again or repeat again.

    Begin with a prayer and pray to God, "OH God I surrender to you. I am at your refuge. Please help me to understand Gita. Let me grasp what is necessary for me. Let me grasp the essence. Oh God Clear my mind, silence this inner chatter. Prepare me to read this holy book. Without your grace how can I know you! How can I come near you! Oh God I surrender to you'

    If you sincerely repeat it 2-3 times and then open the book and re-read it, I am sure you will find insight.

    God listens to devotees who ask for solving financial problems. Don't you think God will listen you to your sincere prayer which is better than asking for material comforts?

    God helps. He definitely does help. Trust God. Not me

    Aum
    Indiaspirituality

    EDIT: @philosoraptor. The blog which you have provided link is very informative , but as @satay says, the download of BG is not working
    Last edited by Amrut; 08 February 2013 at 10:11 AM.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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