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Thread: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

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    Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Acc. to Bhagavad Purana, Sri Vishnu has taken 22 avataras.

    But it appears that from the story behind the 108 divya desams for Sriman Narayana, that in many of these temples, Sri Vishnu has unique existence that is separate from the Narayana of the milky ocean.

    Let us take for example, Kanchi Varadaraja. It is said he emerged from the sacrificial fire of Brahma and has a unique existence. For example, when the profound Vaishnava devotee 'Thirukkachi Nambi' wants to do fanning service to Sri Ranganatha, it is said Sri Ranganatha told him not to as he was cool being surrounded by river Cauvery. Then Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have asked Tirupathi Venkatachalapathi. For this, Sri Venkateswara answered in similar vein that he too is not in need of fanning service as being atop 7 hills, he gets cool mountain air and is thus not hot. Then finally Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have been told by Venkateswara to do the fanning service to Kanchi Varadaraja as he only emerged from Yagna homa and is thus always very hot. This suggests, Tirupathi Venkateswara has a separate existence, so does Ranganatha and so does Kanchi Varadaraja, although they are all Sri Vishnu.

    And apart from the 22 avataras listed at Bhagavad Purana, there are still other forms of Vishnu such as Satyanarayana.

    And similarly for Sri Krishna, I am aware of atleast 3 forms of Krishna - Krishna as always worshipped, Panduranga and Puri Jagannatha.

    Thus I am wondering, if there are indeed 108 additional forms of Vishnu belonging to 108 divya desa. Do they all have separate existence in Vaikuntha? Afterall, in my imagination so far, Sri Vishnu meant only Sriman Narayana lying on the bed of AdiSesha in the milky ocean - now it appears there are many, many forms of Vishnu with separate existence and consort for each.

    Insights welcome.

    Edit:

    As an added example, once Sri Tirupathi Balaji is said to have appeared in the dream of a profound devotee and instructed him that Sri Varagunamanga is supposed to be the wife of his brother, Sri Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha, and to proceed with the divine marriage taking to this instruction! Thus we know Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha is different from Tirupathi Balaji.
    Last edited by Viraja; 13 February 2013 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Added the portion under 'Edit'.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Jai Sriman Narayana!

    Sriman Narayana's Avataras are of different categories -> Para, Vyūha, Vibhava, Antaryamin, and Archa!

    Sri Rama, Krishna etc are vibhava avatars or His appearing amongst us and interacting with us. Please note that all vibhava avatars are not the same. There are purna avatars, amsa avatars, avesha avatars etc. Sri Rama, Krishna are complete avatars.

    Sriman Narayana with Adi Shesa in the milk ocean is also an avatar only..cause we see Brahma and other mortal devas entering and leaving. (They were on TV)

    The Archa Avataras are a totally different category, much more merciful that all other avatars. Why so? I haven't seen Vaikuntha, I wasn't even a grass in Vrindavan or Ayodhya when He came. But even I can go to Thirupati or SriRangam and worship Him. He is here amongst us, waiting for us and at the mercy for us! He doesn't easily break His vow of silence.

    Please note that these are "Divya" desams and so distinguish themselves from the other temples. They have their references in the Puranas; Sri Ranganatha has been personally worshipped by Sri Rama Himself. The 7 hills of Thirupathi, I believe, are mentioned even in Rig Vedas. But other temples have been constructed recently.

  3. #3

    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Acc. to Bhagavad Purana, Sri Vishnu has taken 22 avataras.
    Pranams. Yes, that is true. However, in that same chapter listing the avatAras, it is also mentioned that Lord has forms as innumerable as the waves of the ocean.

    But it appears that from the story behind the 108 divya desams for Sriman Narayana, that in many of these temples, Sri Vishnu has unique existence that is separate from the Narayana of the milky ocean.

    Let us take for example, Kanchi Varadaraja. It is said he emerged from the sacrificial fire of Brahma and has a unique existence. For example, when the profound Vaishnava devotee 'Thirukkachi Nambi' wants to do fanning service to Sri Ranganatha, it is said Sri Ranganatha told him not to as he was cool being surrounded by river Cauvery. Then Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have asked Tirupathi Venkatachalapathi. For this, Sri Venkateswara answered in similar vein that he too is not in need of fanning service as being atop 7 hills, he gets cool mountain air and is thus not hot. Then finally Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have been told by Venkateswara to do the fanning service to Kanchi Varadaraja as he only emerged from Yagna homa and is thus always very hot. This suggests, Tirupathi Venkateswara has a separate existence, so does Ranganatha and so does Kanchi Varadaraja, although they are all Sri Vishnu.

    And apart from the 22 avataras listed at Bhagavad Purana, there are still other forms of Vishnu such as Satyanarayana.

    And similarly for Sri Krishna, I am aware of atleast 3 forms of Krishna - Krishna as always worshipped, Panduranga and Puri Jagannatha.

    Thus I am wondering, if there are indeed 108 additional forms of Vishnu belonging to 108 divya desa. Do they all have separate existence in Vaikuntha? Afterall, in my imagination so far, Sri Vishnu meant only Sriman Narayana lying on the bed of AdiSesha in the milky ocean - now it appears there are many, many forms of Vishnu with separate existence and consort for each.
    Lord is never "separate" from Himself, but He can appear in multiple different places simultaneously, as He did during the rAsa-lIlA and also during His dvAraka-lIla with 16,108 separate queens. And what to speak of being in 16,108 palaces, the shrutis declare that He is the indwelling paramAtmA within each jIva. This makes His many manifestations limitless.

    In the shruti, nArAyaNa does not specifically denote the form of the Lord lying on milk ocean. Rather, the concept "nArAyaNa" is synonymous with "brahman," which in turn is synonymous with the parama puruSha having countless limbs and divine attributes. This all-pervading, boundless form of the Lord presents such an overwhelming experience to behold that He conceals these glories and takes other forms that are more accessible to the devotee.

    Now, your question, as I understand it, is this: when the devotee gets liberation, does he or she have the choice of worshiping the Lord in any of these forms which are beheld in this world (lIla-vibhUtI)? I'm not entirely sure of the answer. In the first place, I do not think a devotee would distinguish between any form of the Lord, knowing that He is the repository of all attributes and all personalities. That being said, the gauDIya vaiShNavas say that there is a separate manifestation of vaikuntha for every form of the Lord and the devotee will eternally engage in service to Him in one specific relationship with the Lord in a specific form, i.e. rAma, kRiShNa, and so on. But, it should be noted that this is not explicitly mentioned in the bhAgavata or viShNu purANas, and aside from one oblique reference in the bRhadAraNyaka upaniShad, the nitya-vibhUti aka vaikuntha aka param padam is usually referred to in shAstra in the singular.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    JignyAsu, Philosoraptor:

    Philosoraptor is correct, my question is whether the 'Archaavataras' carry separate manifestation in Vaikuntha?

    See below, the incident I described under 'Edit' in the original post - Sri Varamanga appears in the dream of Sri Jeeyar Swamigal and says she is not to be married to Tirupathi Venkateswara but she is the bride of Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha:

    From http://ancientindiantemple.blogspot....1_archive.html -

    The urchava idol of Thayar was in the temple of Vada Venkatam. Once they were arranging for marriage celebration of Venkatesa Perumal with the urchava idol.

    Sri Varamangai came in the dream of Sri jeeyar swamigal, and told him she is consort of Vanama malai Perumal. Sri Ramanuja jeeyar brought the urchava idol to this place and celebrated the marriage utsavam of Sri Vanamalai Perumal and Sri Varamangai.
    From this, it appears each archaavatara has unique manifestation?

    Philosoraptor, thanks for stating about GV's take on it, I'm holding similar view now - that separate manifestation of the Lord - Ram, Krishna, Venkateswara have unique presence in Vaikuntha...

    Maybe I can ask the current Jeeyar Swami?
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    oops..sorry to have missed the main question

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Namaste Aspirant,
    My reply might be moving on a different tangent

    My friend Sreeman Naaraayan takes many Avtaar everyday to protect his devotees. There hasn't been a day, I have failed to feel his presence in one form or other.

    Once when I had lost almost all source of help and looked above. To my surprise clouds were taking the form of Nrsimha. The next day I cleared very important phase of life just by one count.
    He is with me now patiently watching me typing this.

    Jai Sree Raam!!
    Anirudh...

  7. #7

    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    My reply might be moving on a different tangent

    Jai Sree Raam!!
    No, not at all. This is how it is. This is exactly how He works. His Hand.

    my question is whether the 'Archaavataras' carry separate manifestation in Vaikuntha?
    The short answer should be yes, not just for 'archAvatAr' but lIlA avatAr, and svayam rUpa.
    * Since the Lord is Absolute, He is non-different from His abode(s).
    Since vaikuntha is beyond time and space it is very flexible there is no rule that a devotee always resides in one place
    generally there is one ishta form and devotee is perpetually with that form
    occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode

    when you are ___ i am ___
    when you are ___ i am ___
    when you are ___ i am ___

    and so on

    is what i think


    do i have shastra backing
    yes and no

    namaste
    om namo bhagavate vasudevaya

    shift keys not working
    Last edited by smaranam; 26 February 2013 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Lord non-different from abode
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #8

    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode
    Actually, because the Lord is absolute and eternal, ALL of His vigraha are Absolute, and eternal.

    So not that the devotee relocated to His other abode, but the form of the same devotee in the other abode is also eternal. SvarUp.

    It is not that RAm and KRshNa and Vyankateshwar came and went. How can the unborn be ever born? No question of dying.
    They are eternal. Plus, Shri comes with Him, and each time we get to see Her in a corresponding svarUp alongside the Lord's different svarUp.

    The fact that we in this world just discovered them does not mean they did not exist.

    _/\_

    Radhe Shyam
    Sita Ram
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste Aspirant,
    My reply might be moving on a different tangent

    My friend Sreeman Naaraayan takes many Avtaar everyday to protect his devotees. There hasn't been a day, I have failed to feel his presence in one form or other.

    Once when I had lost almost all source of help and looked above. To my surprise clouds were taking the form of Nrsimha. The next day I cleared very important phase of life just by one count.
    He is with me now patiently watching me typing this.

    Jai Sree Raam!!
    Interesting.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    The short answer should be yes, not just for 'archAvatAr' but lIlA avatAr, and svayam rUpa.
    * Since the Lord is Absolute, He is non-different from His abode(s).
    Since vaikuntha is beyond time and space it is very flexible there is no rule that a devotee always resides in one place
    generally there is one ishta form and devotee is perpetually with that form
    occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode
    Smaranam ji, I am unable to understand it when you say, "the Lord is Absolute". Can you elaborate on that one? Thank you.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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