Doctors and Death

[Equinox]

Vannakkam

Something I've been thinking of for some time now.

Is there a Hindu way for doctors and surgeons to cleanse themselves of patient deaths? Death is of course something normal for doctors and should be handled professionally without much emotion and feeling, and to be forgotten eventually. There's death everywhere and almost every hour in large hospitals. But is there a Hindu way to cleanse themselves, if they were present during the patient's death?

This doesn't necessarily apply to doctors alone but for all those present when the death of a patient took place, like nurses, attendants and so on. For example, when they're operating on someone, and the patient dies. I know that cleansing rituals are for family members and blood relatives of the deceased. But what about doctors who operated on them while they're dying? And if the doctor is Hindu and wants to cleanse himself of the death.

There might not be any specific elaborate rituals in Hinduism for doctors handling deaths, but are there any symbolical or philosophical ways at least to cleanse oneself of patient deaths?

Then there's the post-mortem to think of. How do you cleanse yourself?


Aum Namah Shivaya

[philosoraptor]

By bathing, I would assume. You are correct that the uncleanliness period as prescribed in shAstra should apply to relatives, but the mere contact with the dead body should be a cause for at least transient uncleanliness. Probably there are some mantras which can be chanted for this purpose. I know of one from the mahAnArAyaNa that is supposed to be used during bathing to meditate on being freed from all sins through the act of bathing.

Personally, I don't think medicine, however respected a profession it is, is really a very "clean" profession that is suitable for brahmins in an ideal world.

[Viraja]

Personally, I don't think medicine, however respected a profession it is, is really a very "clean" profession that is suitable for brahmins in an ideal world.

Good that many Brahmins do not feel the same way, if not then the 'Brahmin community' as such would be devoid of any prominent doctors in the society.

[philosoraptor]

Good that many Brahmins do not feel the same way, if not then the 'Brahmin community' as such would be devoid of any prominent doctors in the society.

Frankly, if we followed varNAshrama standards more faithfully, I think brahmins in general would stick to their traditional occupations as priests and teachers, and things like medicine, law, IT, engineering, etc would be left to shUdras and vaishyas.

I remember Sri U. Ve. Velukkudi Krishna Swami once answering the question about brahmins entering IT consulting fields and the legitimacy of it. His tongue-in-cheek response was that brahmins have always been consultants, so whether spiritual consultant or IT consultant, it did not matter. :-)

[Equinox]

Vannakkam Phil,

but the mere contact with the dead body should be a cause for at least transient uncleanliness.

Yes. That is quite the reason as to why I asked the question in the first place.

Bathing is the general norm for all doctors anyway, but luckily, as you mentioned there's some mantras too.

Frankly, if we followed varNAshrama standards more faithfully, I think brahmins in general would stick to their traditional occupations as priests and teachers, and things like medicine, law, IT, engineering, etc would be left to shUdras and vaishyas.

That reminds me of the old saying that a Brahmin loses his caste if he crosses the sea. LOL. The ancient Brahmins of Southeast Asia traveled by boat from Southern India to spread Hinduism in this subregion. It's good that this rule was broken, or else they'd have to make tiring journeys by land on a camel or car across the various adjoining continents in search of a better life, and scarily, never at all make it to America and Australia/New Zealand.



Aum Namah Shivaya

[sanjaya]

Good that many Brahmins do not feel the same way, if not then the 'Brahmin community' as such would be devoid of any prominent doctors in the society.

Ha! Quite right. Most of us don't perform priestly duties as we should anyway, so what the heck, right?

Anyway, see my previous posts from awhile back on the Indian obsession with getting your American-born kids into medicine or engineering (but preferably medicine) at all costs.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Equinox

I am glad you asked the question, because my daughter is currently attending a medical high school and on the path towards a career in the medical profession. Part of that instruction is cleanliness, doctors are in general the most clean people I know of, and that is certainly the case in the clinic itself where it is a legal requirement. She has all the qualities (almost like gunas, actually) for this, which includes her extremely high intelligence.

I am curious what others say regarding purification when one comes in contact with the dead. Yes, as noted bathing is one way, mantra, there must be some others and more specific ritual and duty. As from my observation, there is a distinct difference in regards to if the dead you come in contact with is simply due to circumstance, due to profession, as opposed to when a family member dies. I am told when a family member dies, not only do you cleanse yourself with bathing, but the entire house needs to be cleaned. But a doctor coming home may bath, I do not think the doctor needs to clean the entire house since the circumstances are different. But I am curious as well.

The mention you made of the “old saying that a Brahmin loses his caste if he crosses the sea”, I had alluded to this saying in another post (it was either defining a “Neo” or defining a “Hindu”, cannot recall which thread). I don’t believe it – as you say the Brahmins of South India travelled to many regions and that is why we see “Hinduism” in famous areas of the world such as Indonesia, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam and so on – what to speak of Bali for example. And what to speak of those who came to America in the 20th Century which we (meaning a Westerner such as myself living in the USA) are so grateful for. But I had also heard this type of saying from a few very, very traditional Hindus in India, that you “break your caste if you travel overseas”. I had read this as well, and I recall if I am correct that Gandhi’s Mother told Mohandas that he would break his caste if he went to England – she later changed her mind by the way. So putting a definition on such things can be very difficult because there are so many different and diverse traditions and perspectives within “Hinduism”.

While it is, IMO, wonderful that those who have a mantle for carrying on the priesthood serve others and the world in this capacity, and I say please come to America because we need more of such, at the same time I welcome any and all Brahmins if they so desire to also come to America if they desire to take up the practice of medicine, because we need more doctors in America as I predict that there will be more emerging diseases and more and more who need doctors (in fact all over the world!). If they have the qualities and ability to take to the profession, personally I respect those in the profession immensely. You cannot just be a fool, nor an idiot or a lazy person with no intelligence and no work ethic to become a doctor and to be a doctor. Below (in smaller font) is the requirements to pursue the profession in the United States.

PS – my daughter as part of her studies in Medical High School, included an introduction to Ayurvedic medicine! I kid you not!

In regards to what occurs in the medical clinic, I am opposed to abortion. But it is legal in the United States, I feel this is against every sense of ethics. Some doctors perform abortions in the United States which has nothing to do with saving the life of the mother, which I consider an abomination. For such doctors, in my opinion, nothing will cleanse them of this and the karmic results of such actions.

Om Namah Sivaya

----------------------------------

Pathway to becoming a licensed Physician/Doctor in the United States

In the United States, to become a physician in a specific practice of medicine, this requires qualifying for and completing four years of college in pre-med studies, and then followed then by four years of an accredited medical school of which you must pass the MCAT test (Medical College Admission Test, administered by the AAMC, which develops test content in cooperation with US medical schools) to be admitted into the medical school, in some cases some fields can be a combined curriculum of six years. Six competencies are determine the candidate’s eligibility for medical school admission which includes (1) undergraduate work, (2) grade point average, (3) MCAT, (4) extracurricular activities, (5) letters of recommendation and (6) interviews with the medical school admissions committee. Then as part of the ones specific practice, you need to complete a residency in a hospital, medical provider or medical institution after graduating from medical school, this is a minimum of 3 years residency but some are longer depending on the subspecialty, during which time you are under the tutorship and guidance of other practitioners who are certified in the field, other doctors supervise your residency. You then take your medical exam or medical board administered by the state and in conjunction with the American Medical Association (AMA), which will result in your license to practice as a doctor in your field. This needs to be tested, in the board and renewed every few years in order to maintain your license to practice.

Part of the medical school curriculum includes, during the first 2 years of study laboratory work, then clinical rotations inclusive of anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, histology, pathology and pharmacology (this are typical minimums). Also in the curriculum in strong clinical correlation, patient history analysis, physical examination and diagnosis. All of this of course, has cleanliness as foundational to the clinical correlation.

Cleanliness as foundational to the clinical correlation begins instruction at the earliest stages, including for those who attend a medical high school prior to college, and continues throughout the entire schooling at all levels and during the entire life of the legally licensed practitioner. Doctors are some of the most hygienically clean individuals I know, it is part of their practice.

Some on the pathway to the medical profession attend an accredited medical high school, where there is a focus on certain medical studies, and maintain a good grade point average is very important. Students need to have the qualities (very much like gunas, IMO there is a correlation) that allow and afford such path of service to society – not the least of which is extremely high intelligence. In the US, this has nothing to do with caste, in the United States a practitioner of the medical profession is based on a criteria that is not “birth based profession” or “jati”. Unfortunately, medical school is quite expensive, so there is an element of discrimination against the poor regarding admittance to medical school however this is becoming less of an issue in the United States thanks to scholarship programs and grants, and community organizations (inclusive of Hindu organizations and many others) who sponsor the poorest in terms of monetary assistance for those who have the qualities of intelligence and proven ability by exams and other measures to enter medical school. Those who are Brahmins must undergo the same rigor as any other person on the path to the medical profession.

Racial, ethnic and religious discrimination is not tolerated in the pathway of education and the licensing of doctors in the United States, and those who practice discrimination face not only losing all accreditation to teach or practice, but may face criminal and civil charges in some cases.

In addition, if a patient has died, and the dead body is given audience to relatives outside the immediate operation room (for example), as much as possible the family is given full allowance for religious duties associated so long as the actions do not threaten the cleanliness and the personal safety of others – to discriminate regarding such religious matters is not legal. For example, obviously relatives of the deceased cannot set to pyre the body right then and there in a medical facility since this would endanger the cleanliness and safety of the facility and others. However, relatives who are given admittance to the body even in a public facility may want to perform some religious duty to the body, or even in the case of someone in the process of dying, such as to adorn the one who is dying on the head with sandalwood, or other markings, or for example tie a red or yellow string to the wrist. Religious discrimination is not allowed in such regard.

[Viraja]

Ha! Quite right. Most of us don't perform priestly duties as we should anyway, so what the heck, right?

Anyway, see my previous posts from awhile back on the Indian obsession with getting your American-born kids into medicine or engineering (but preferably medicine) at all costs.

I agree with the part that parents, be in India or USA want their children to get a prestigious degree, especially being doctors. But this instinct is not just limited to Brahmins, it is everyone Indian. In such an atmosphere, you do not want just the Brahmin society to be devoid of good doctors.

[philosoraptor]

I agree with the part that parents, be in India or USA want their children to get a prestigious degree, especially being doctors. But this instinct is not just limited to Brahmins, it is everyone Indian. In such an atmosphere, you do not want just the Brahmin society to be devoid of good doctors.

Hypothetically speaking, is there any reason why brahmins could not be taken care of by shUdra or vaishya doctors?

[philosoraptor]

That reminds me of the old saying that a Brahmin loses his caste if he crosses the sea. LOL. The ancient Brahmins of Southeast Asia traveled by boat from Southern India to spread Hinduism in this subregion. It's good that this rule was broken, or else they'd have to make tiring journeys by land on a camel or car across the various adjoining continents in search of a better life, and scarily, never at all make it to America and Australia/New Zealand.

Pranams.

I would be really interested in seeing the context of these statements. I've heard about them also, and it's hard not to agree seeing the many "brahmins" who immigrated here to USA. Few have kept their culture in any meaningful way, so the author of that statement may have a point. Then again, I wonder if, like many other statements of a consequential nature, it wasn't intended more as a warning than a statement of fact. After all, I do occasionally meet some brahminical brahmins who stayed that way despite crossing the ocean.