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Thread: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

  1. #11
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Buddha himself, if he were alive today, would probably distance himself from "Buddhist" schools of thought!
    I think that this is perhaps true. All of the speculative philosophy came much later and does not comply with the original teachings. You are very right about the tendency towards nihilism and it is, of course, nowadays very popular amongst martialists who synthesize modern scientific biology with a mistaken understanding of anatta.

    In terms of Buddhism playing a role in Hinduism. That would very much depend upon your understanding and practice of both.

  2. #12
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    I think that this is perhaps true. All of the speculative philosophy came much later and does not comply with the original teachings.
    Nobody knows the original teachings of the historical Buddha, the oldest known manuscripts date from the 15th century c.e. They are the result of multiple copying from older sources and on top of that the teachings were transmited orally for hundred of years before they were first written down. The next thing that one should keep in mind when talking about this topic is that from early on buddhavacana, that is the word of buddha never meant the words of one historical person called Gautama Buddha, but included by definition the word of his disciples, devas and other beings, teachers that came before him and after him. What makes up the definition of buddhavacana is that it is the corpus of all those teachings that comply with the eternal Dharma. So first of all there is no way to tell what buddhist teachings comply with the teachings of the historical Gautama buddha, and even if we could do that, it would not imply anything ground breaking for a buddhist, since the concept of `budhavacana`was never understood to refer to the teaching of a single historical person, maybe it would mean a lot for academics, but not for traditional buddhists.
    Last edited by MahaHrada; 04 March 2013 at 08:12 AM.

  3. #13
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Nobody knows the original teachings of the historical Buddha, the oldest known manuscripts date from the 15th century c.e. They are the result of multiple copying from older sources and on top of that the teachings were transmited orally for hundred of years before they were first written down.
    Hi MahaHrada,
    Great to see you again. I guess what I mean by "original" is the material in the Pali suttas. Perhaps "original" is the wrong word but they at least contain the core teachings and have the elements that all diverging schools consider the default position. But yes, your point is valid regarding the subsequent religion of Buddhism versus the man who started it.

    even if we could do that, it would not imply anything ground breaking for a buddhist, since the concept of `budhavacana`was never understood to refer to the teaching of a single historical person, maybe it would mean a lot for academics, but not for traditional buddhists.
    I have no contact with "traditional" Buddhists but I'm sure you're right there. Nowadays my prime contact is with the eclectic western variety and they make a lot of assumptions (or interpretations) about what the Buddha taught. Say if we take the abhidharmic writings and subsequent philosophical developments of the Hinhayana and Mahayana schools and contrast them with Buddha's dialogue in the suttas we encounter quite a few inconsistencies. Likewise if we take the modern Theravadan view that Buddha never had anything to do with tantra, we can also find inconsistencies.

    Like you say, this is generally irrelevant to the Buddhist majority, as "the Corpus" is what matters. But it's still interesting to examine assumptions. If we are always satisfied with what others tell us, we may not understand that which we think we understand. That's my approach in any case.

    Namaste

  4. #14
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Hi MahaHrada,
    Great to see you again. I guess what I mean by "original" is the material in the Pali suttas. Perhaps "original" is the wrong word but they at least contain the core teachings and have the elements that all diverging schools consider the default position. But yes, your point is valid regarding the subsequent religion of Buddhism versus the man who started it.
    Hi SriVijaya,

    It is useful to follow the strand of time to before the birth of historical Gautama Buddha, because his teachings did not appear out of the void on the contrary he seemend to have been a reformer of early non vedic tradition, not a founder of a new religion and was modifying and unifying earlier strands of indic renunciate traditions.

    Also it is helpful to keep in mind that many indic traditions are passed on primarilly orally and therefore later written texts may contain very early customs and norms.

    Many academics for instance agree that renuncaite shaivaite, or tantric and shakta traditions, despite the late medieaveal appearance of written evidence, may contain very early primordial norms and beliefs, probably even predating the vedic and buddhist tradition.
    I have no contact with "traditional" Buddhists but I'm sure you're right there. Nowadays my prime contact is with the eclectic western variety and they make a lot of assumptions (or interpretations) about what the Buddha taught. Say if we take the abhidharmic writings and subsequent philosophical developments of the Hinhayana and Mahayana schools and contrast them with Buddha's dialogue in the suttas we encounter quite a few inconsistencies. Likewise if we take the modern Theravadan view that Buddha never had anything to do with tantra, we can also find inconsistencies.
    What do the westerners expect? In my opionion any religion and philosophy that has not changed, adapted, integrated and interacted with the intellectual and social developments and isolated itself from the surrounding world, for a longer span of time, in buddhism this would be almost three thousand years and having brought forth only one single person of authority whose words are still venerated as the sole source of truth would be a highly suspicious affair.

    We can see in the example of orthodox Islam, the danger inherent in the idea of a final revealation, and a single authority.
    Like you say, this is generally irrelevant to the Buddhist majority, as "the Corpus" is what matters. But it's still interesting to examine assumptions. If we are always satisfied with what others tell us, we may not understand that which we think we understand. That's my approach in any case.
    Namaste
    I think it is not so much the question whether to refrain from examining assumptions, but which questions are relevant and help us acquire what we want to achieve, and which are Irrelevant or even a Hindrance.

    So due to the fast decay of written material in the asian climate and the fact that even the pali canon was written down hundred of years after buddhas parinirvana, coupled with the fact that orally transmitted stone age customs all of a sudden may resurface in medieaveal literature the historical approach is fraught with difficulties.
    When we realise that a tradition always must be something that is still alive and developing, a religion that is merely a monolithic structure and adaption is considered a misfortune in my opinion can only cause suffering and must be harmful, far from being unwanted, on the contrary change is something that is vitally needed for a tradition to remain meaningful. So the fact that todays Buddhism (or Hinduism) differs greatly from what it was before is actually a relief, not something one should worry about.

  5. #15
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Many academics for instance agree that renuncaite shaivaite, or tantric and shakta traditions, despite the late medieaveal appearance of written evidence, may contain very early primordial norms and beliefs, probably even predating the vedic and buddhist tradition.
    I very much believe this to be the case. The evidence points to it. Apart from which, the physical reality of a human's body/mind is something the species has had for way longer.

    What do the westerners expect? In my opionion any religion and philosophy that has not changed, adapted, integrated and interacted with the intellectual and social developments and isolated itself from the surrounding world, for a longer span of time, in buddhism this would be almost three thousand years and having brought forth only one single person of authority whose words are still venerated as the sole source of truth would be a highly suspicious affair.
    And a very dead affair too.

    I think it is not so much the question whether to refrain from examining assumptions, but which questions are relevant and help us acquire what we want to achieve, and which are Irrelevant or even a Hindrance.
    Absolutely. I see it as holding up teachings to the light of experience, in a pragmatic way, to see if they work for you. Some paths don't work, no matter how hard you push. Others are like a home-coming.

    the historical approach is fraught with difficulties.
    I've had to resort to it, to some extent, to resolve difficulties I have found. It has helped in this regard, if only to pacify some turmoil I've experienced. (Another thread perhaps).

    When we realise that a tradition always must be something that is still alive and developing... change is something that is vitally needed for a tradition to remain meaningful. So the fact that todays Buddhism (or Hinduism) differs greatly from what it was before is actually a relief, not something one should worry about.
    As long as they still serve to point the seeker on the right path, then they are doing that which they should. Ultimately, the window-dressing is less important.

    Namste

  6. #16

    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Not to seem rude, but can we get back to my original question, which is: what role does the Buddha play in Hindu religion? I've seen pictures of the Buddha on shrines and when I got a deck of God and Goddess cards the Buddha was presented as one of the Gods. This confused me. I'm simply trying to learn about how the Buddha is perceived within the Hindu spirituality, not how "Buddhism as a religion" is perceived. Thanks for understand and I hope my clarification helps!

  7. #17
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    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmAspie View Post
    Not to seem rude, but can we get back to my original question, which is: what role does the Buddha play in Hindu religion? I've seen pictures of the Buddha on shrines and when I got a deck of God and Goddess cards the Buddha was presented as one of the Gods. This confused me. I'm simply trying to learn about how the Buddha is perceived within the Hindu spirituality, not how "Buddhism as a religion" is perceived. Thanks for understand and I hope my clarification helps!
    Probably we diverged from the topic because Buddha does not play any significant role in modern Hinduism, even the conception of being a minor Avatar of Vishnu is accepted by very few Vaishnavas, and even in this role he is imagined to have used this avatara only to deceive the enemies of the devas with deluded teachings. Then he is mentionend in the Nath Sampradaya or the siddha tradition as one among the many siddhas that are worshipped as perfected Gurus. So overall Buddha has no role in Hinduism other than to represent delusion.

  8. #18

    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MahaHrada View Post
    Probably we diverged from the topic because Buddha does not play any significant role in modern Hinduism, even the conception of being a minor Avatar of Vishnu is accepted by very few Vaishnavas, and even in this role he is imagined to have used this avatara only to deceive the enemies of the devas with deluded teachings. Then he is mentionend in the Nath Sampradaya or the siddha tradition as one among the many siddhas that are worshipped as perfected Gurus. So overall Buddha has no role in Hinduism other than to represent delusion.
    Agree with the above. I am curious to know which shrine had a picture of the Buddha? I cannot recall seeing one myself.
    http://lokayata.info
    http://shivsomashekhar.wordpress.com/category/history/

  9. #19

    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    Agree with the above. I am curious to know which shrine had a picture of the Buddha? I cannot recall seeing one myself.

    I'll go back through the show your shrine thread and see who's it was. I seem to recall seeing it more than once, but I could be remembering incorrectly. I appreciate the sharing of proper knowledge of my new faith so I am not doing things improperly!

    Namaste!
    OmAspie


  10. #20

    Re: What Role Does Buddha Play in Hinduism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    Agree with the above. I am curious to know which shrine had a picture of the Buddha? I cannot recall seeing one myself.
    I went through all the shrine pictures in that thread and the following users had Buddha in their shrine.

    • Spirtualseeker
    • Sahasranama
    • Daniellasaur
    • Jainarayan
    Well, so I'm not going crazy. Feel free to find their pics in said thread and see what I mean.


    OmAspie

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