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Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
On the hand, the following is ultimately true.
True freedom from forces of Guna and of fate is available.
6.7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.
Om Namah Shivayya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
aum Sri GaNeSAya namah.
yoga-yukto visuddhatma
vijitatma jitendriyah
sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma
kurvann api na lipyate
yoga-yuktah--engaged in devotional service; visuddha-atma--a purified soul; vijita-atma--self-controlled; jita-indriyah--having conquered the senses; sarva-bhuta--to all living entities; atma-bhuta-atma--compassionate; kurvan api--although engaged in work; na--never; lipyate--is entangled.
One who works in devotion, who is a pure soul, and who controls his mind and senses, is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to him. Though always working, such a man is never entangled.
A Karma-yogi whose mind is pure, whose mind and senses are under control, and who sees one and the same Self in all beings, is not bound (by Karma) though engaged in work. (5.07)
Pranam Atanu ji
Please allow me to correct, the verse quoted is 5.07 and not 6.7
I have also brought two translation of the verse slightly different from one another.
That said it is important to note the freedom from action is not posible, the conscious self is gatisil, and trapped in this sansar, forced to act as if mounted on a machine!
There is no escaping the fact that we have to train our mind to be pure and bring the senses in control desires are insurmountable, there is an old Hindi song I like which sums it up (hajro Khawish esi hoti hai ke har khawish pe hi dum nikle) thousands of desires are as so that each one kills to fulfill.
So when krishna says
ma phalesu kadacana
That is for our own benefit of training the mind to give up the build up of further karma and when we offer all our deeds be it mind body speech we set us free from karma
but this is not easy simply lip service is not enough, i may fool the world but the lord who dwells in the heart knows all unless I have given up the desires and hate in me there is no freedom from action, I simply have to be sincere to myself.
Kayena vacha manasendriyairva
Buddhyatmana va prakrite swabhavath
Karomi yadyad sakalam parasmai
Narayanayeti samarpayami
Whatever I do with my body, speech, mind or with other senses of my body, or with my intellect and soul or with my innate natural tendencies I offer (dedicate) everything to Lord Narayana
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
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Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,
Yes I made a mistake.
But you can easily see that 'sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma', does not exactly mean dear to all. It means one whose self is self of all. Three other translations are given below.
A Karma-yogi, whose mind is pure, whose mind and senses are under control, and who sees one and the same Spirit in all beings, is not bound by Karma though engaged in work. (5.07)
(7) He who is trained in the way of works, and is pure in soul, who is master of his self and who has conquered the senses, whose soul becomes the self of all beings, he is not tainted by works, though he works.
Endowed with yoga, pure in mind, controlled in body, a conqueror of the organs, the Self of the selves of all beings, - he does not become tainted even while performing actions. (5.07)
Three variants all differ from the translation of Prabhupada, which is always unique, as if tailored to his own wishes. In this case, the difference is not small, the whole philosophy may get altered, if the importance of adorable to all is not understood.Many may understand this to be a case of a very popular man, whereas only the Self of all is adorable to all.
However, the verse that I wanted to cite was:
Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.
6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.
The point is that Lord himself puts the responsibility on a man.
And on this account what Yajvan Ji is indicating, is ultimately correct. The ultimate freedom rests with us. Whether we chose to be controlled by Gunas or to lift the self by the Self, is upon us.
Gita 5.26. Absolute freedom exists on all sides for those self-controlled ascetics who are free from desire and anger, who have controlled their thoughts and who have realised the Self.
Jai Shree Krishna
Om Namah Shivayya
Last edited by atanu; 08 March 2007 at 11:08 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namste Atanu Banerjee,
this is quite important and thank you for bringing it up i.e. conquered the self. This is when real devotion begins, without all the 'noise of the self' pulling one here and there.
Subdued the senses , comes when the self is lost to the SELF... trying to subdue the senses on their own is a noble cause, yet difficult - as the senses operate within the field of the senses, doing thier job.
Here' s my point - for eon's - people have been trying to subdue the senses on thier level ( taste, smell, feel, etc). This has stalled our society from producing many more enlightenend beings and frustrated many a sadhu who perhaps thought ' I just am not trying hard enough and need even more tapas' . To , this a new birth , and trying agin will happen. It is the 'skill in action' which is key.What is that skill, yogastah kuru karmani, says Krsna, and this occurs by being without the 3 gunas. This is the skill that gets one on the path.
pranams,
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
aum Sri GaNeSAya namah.
Could not agree more.
but just as Yajvan ji points out Arjun also had his doubts
cancalam hi manah krsna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva su-duskaram
For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krsna, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind.(6.34)
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
Member
Namskar,
And I do not think that conquering the self happens without devotion. I think it is impossible --- it would seem a futile and useless thing to do then.
Om Namah Shivayya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
Namskar,
Yes Ganesh Prasad Ji,
I know it. Often it becomes dark, as if there is no way out.
But my Guru says: Surrender. Put all responsiblity on the Self, who is Guru and who is God. The strength is there from where your weaknesses have sprung due to ignorance. Take the road back and find out the source of ego I and you will be welcomed by the real I.
Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.
6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.
Om Namah Shivayya
Last edited by atanu; 09 March 2007 at 06:57 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste Atanu,
Thank you for the post... Now this is a curious condition. This 'self' of wants, desires, and afflictions can be overcome via techniques and the SELF can be realized. Now, what is not possible as I am taught, is the progression to God Consciousness and then to Brahman Consciousness,
tht is the full blossoming of Enlightenment. This was my conversation on the 7 states of consciousness.
Yet the inital relization of SELF can come without bhakti. Please ask your guru on this for confirmation. Most of the people on this HDF are of the spirit and have this intent on their Ishatadevata so this is not an area of concern. Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika). Yet does one become His instrument (nimitta-matam)?
I call your attention to Chapt 9 of the Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prahbupada, he calls this out in his book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is (page 448, after his commentary on verse 9.2) I am not a follower of Srila, yet I read his works and others to always gain a POV. As I also take instrution from my treacher, My teacher doe not suggest do not be devoted. He informs me that bhakti requires full focus and clarity of the mind. This does not come until the SELF is established. Can I not be devoted before then? Sure one can practice, yet the SELF-established-one now has the credentials for the blossoming of this to occur. Only good can come of this.
vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam - Those who are actually knowers of the Absolute Truth know that the SELF is realized in 3 different phases as Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan - Srimad Bhagavatam
pranams,
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
aum Sri GaNeSAya namah.
Pranam Atanu ji
Namskar,
Yes Ganesh Prasad Ji,
I know it. Often it becomes dark, as if there is no way out.
When darkness envelops, paths disappear, way out not in sight, what should one do?
May be we can take cue from nature, when night falls it is time to take rest, and as sure as night the day would follow, a new beginning fresh and ready to go.
Unfortunately we forget what binds us so it is business as usual, so the kal chakra goes on.
But my Guru says: Surrender. Put all responsiblity on the Self, who is Guru and who is God. The strength is there from where your weaknesses have sprung due to ignorance. Take the road back and find out the source of ego I and you will be welcomed by the real I.
You are blessed for you have a guru to guide what chance those who have none, what road what path what fate awaits?
Krishna says thus
adhas cordhvam prasrtas tasya sakha
guna-pravrddha visaya-pravalah
adhas ca mulany anusantatani
karmanubandhini manusya-loke
The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02)
He also gives the way out
na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva
The real form of this tree cannot be perceived in this world. No one can understand where it ends, where it begins, or where its foundation is. But with determination one must cut down this tree with the weapon of detachment.
Tough, very tough
Take the road back, so says Krishna the jagat guru
tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani
So doing, one must seek that place from which, having once gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality from whom everything has began and in whom everything is abiding since time immemorial.
So why does man constantly lowers him self, why?
Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.
6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.
Why would he act like an enemy?
What choice does he have when mounted on this machine forced to act, acting always in the pursuit of happiness, which eludes him forever.
Keeping this in mind how does he lift himself by what method one search from where there is no return?
Jai Shree Krishna
Om Namah Shivayya
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
Member
Pranam,
I doubt your assertion seriously that 'Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika)'. How many are established in Advaita Turiya and how many are Jnanis?
The problem is that the Self is still being considered in association with I-Me-Mine. The Self has no I-Me-Mine.
Turiya is ONE AND ALONE. On its attainment, who will worship whom? Whereas the Third, the Pragnya -- is Sarvesvara --- the worshippable.
Mandukya Upanishad
1. OM is this imperishable Word. OM is the Universe, and this is the exposition of OM. The past, the present and the future, all that was, all that is, all that will be, is OM.
Likewise all else that may exist beyond the bounds of Time, that too is OM.
2. All this Universe is the Eternal Brahman, this Self is the Eternal, and the Self is fourfold.
-------
5. When one sleepeth and yearneth not with any desire, nor seeth any dream, that is the perfect slumber, who is become Oneness, who is wisdom gathered into itself, who is amde of mere delight, who enjoyeth delight unrelated, to whom conscious mind is the door, Prajna, the Lord of Wisdom, He is the third.
6. This is the Almighty, this is the Omniscient, this is the Inner Soul, this is the Womb of the Universe, this is the Birth and Destruction of creatures.
7. He who is neither inward-wise, nor outward-wise, nor both inward- and outward-wise, nor wisdom self-gathered, nor possessed of wisdom, nor unpossessed of wisdom, He Who is unseen and incommunicable, unseizable, featureless, unthinkable, and unnameable, Whose essentiality is awareness of the Self in its single existence, in Whom all phenomena dissolve, Who is Calm, Who is Good, Who is the One than Whom there is no other, Him they deem the fourth ;
He is the Self, He is the object of Knowledge.
End of Citation
What is the object of knowledge and what is the object of worship is clearly delineated in Mandukya Upanishad. If One still sees anoher, then where is the Self, which is uncuttable and unpartitionable?
Let us please wait till realizing the Self, since this is not a matter which can be resolved by debate.
No doubt that bhakti cannot be attained till established in the Self, since God is the Self. However thhis is not equal to attaining the object of knowledge after which one becomes immortal, which is advaita -- one without a second. If a second self remains there it is no more a Turiya.I call your attention to Chapt 9 of the Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prahbupada, he calls this out in his book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is (page 448, after his commentary on verse 9.2) I am not a follower of Srila, yet I read his works and others to always gain a POV. As I also take instrution from my treacher, My teacher doe not suggest do not be devoted. He informs me that bhakti requires full focus and clarity of the mind. This does not come until the SELF is established.
In fact, it is first essential to know the ADVAITA PRAGNYA, before one can reach ADVAITA TURIYA. And before these the Vaisvanaro Self and then Taijjassa Self must be known. The world soul is Agni Vaisvanaro.
Om Namah Shivayya
Last edited by atanu; 10 March 2007 at 09:51 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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