Defining Hindu

[smaranam]

Shankaracharya was a Namboothiri Brahmin. Given his endorsement of temple worship, it is pointless to claim, as you do, that temple worship was assimilated by the Shrauta community in the 15th century.

And what to speak of RukmiNi visiting the Gauri Mandir - the kula devatA, before Her wedding - and planning with Shri KRshNa so He would then kidnapp Her from there.
This was back in DwApar Yug, 5200 years ago. When people performed many many yadnyas, KRshNa being an example setter.

Uddhav asks Shri KRshNa to kindly explain how to best worship His Deity, and KRshNa explains:
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/11/27/en
SB 11.27.9: A twice-born person should worship Me, his worshipable Lord, without duplicity, offering appropriate paraphernalia in loving devotion to My Deity form or to a form of Me appearing upon the ground, in fire, in the sun, in water or within the worshiper's own heart.
SB 11.27.10: One should first purify his body by cleansing his teeth and bathing. Then one should perform a second cleansing by smearing the body with earth and chanting both Vedic and tantric mantras.
SB 11.27.11: Fixing the mind on Me, one should worship Me by his various prescribed duties, such as chanting the Gāyatrī mantra at the three junctures of the day. Such performances are enjoined by the Vedas and purify the worshiper of reactions to fruitive activities.
SB 11.27.12: The Deity form of the Lord is said to appear in eight varieties — stone, wood, metal, earth, paint, sand, the mind or jewels.

--
When there is no faith, no amount of logical evidences will help. Faith, shraddhA, is the all-pervading thread thru' the string of pearls that either throws light on OR covers the truths - by its presence and absence respectively.

Here, faith that itihAs and purAN - at least at their core, are indeed the 5th Ved, is needed.

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[MahaHrada]

Shankaracharya was a Namboothiri Brahmin. Given his endorsement of temple worship, it is pointless to claim, as you do, that temple worship was assimilated by the Shrauta community in the 15th century.

I did did not say any of this, i cannot endlessly defend myself against opinions i never expressed, all i said is that the Nambudiri today use manuals for their tantric pujas that date from the 10th. to the 15th. century bce, while their shrauta practices go back to at least 3000 years and to assume that the tantric pujas are as old as the shrauta dharma simply because Nambudiri practise both is ridicolous. I cannot repeat the same simple facts endlessly, this is a waste of time. To date the beginning of pujas of vigrahas in temples please inform yourself in any history book about the date the first temples were built, just that you are not dissapointed, it was not in treta yuga several millions of years ago.

[smaranam]

To date the beginning of pujas of vigrahas in temples please inform yourself in any history book about the date the first temples were built

Namaste

Not that i am interested in this academic debate, but history books cannot be our all-in-all. We are talking about SanAtan Dharma that brings to us enlightening wisdom from across Kalpas - though not in temporal sequence becs. it wants to take those interested, beyond time and space.
In that case we generally call this relying on documented-history-books-only, "frog-in-a-well-logic." Not all history is documented.

SanAtan Dharma is not an academic subject.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

[MahaHrada]

Namaste

Not that i am interested in this academic debate, but history books cannot be our all-in-all. We are talking about SanAtan Dharma that brings to us enlightening wisdom from across Kalpas - though not in temporal sequence becs. it wants to take those interested, beyond time and space.
In that case we generally call this relying on documented-history-books-only, "frog-in-a-well-logic." Not all history is documented.

SanAtan Dharma is not an academic subject.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

I am sorry that this may seem unacceptable to you but according to my worldview it is only after there is a temple built and after an artist has acquired the ability to fashion an image and then has actually done this, that someone can worship a vigraha in a temple, our knowledge of the world has increased and today it is ridicolous to belive that the world is flat and rests on elphants, who in turn rest on a turtle, and that night and day is caused by the disappearance of sun and moon behind a huge mountain in the middle of this flat earth , the mount meru, even if it is the standard cosmology, written in many of the puranas. But of course it is your choice what you belief and what you do not belief but also you cannot expect that everybody shares your belief.

[philosoraptor]

I do not need to amend views or change opinions that i never expressed, the same goes of course for your assorted insults and accusations i do not have the time to spent and defend myself against all kind of obvious nonsense.

Since the majority of the content of your postings are misrepresenting or simply inventing opinions i never expressed, something that is called libel and slander among civilized people, there is almost nothing rational left in your postings i can respond to.

Pranams. Unfortunate that Maha sees scrutiny of his opinons as "libel" or "slander." Once again, while he reserves the right to question our religious traditions (which I for one, support), he is hostile to any scrutiny of his own views.

That puja paddhatis were authored in medieval times does not make temple worship of medieval origin. That is because most pUja paddhatis are extracts of directives from older scriptures, authored by an AchArya within the sampradAya to standardize the worship for priests of that time. I have seen several pUja paddhatis which invoke similar mantras and shlokas despite being from different traditions, all pointing to a common set of foundation texts from which these manuals are derived.

At this time, since this is a major point of criticism for Maha, I invite him to give us the publication information for the Nambhoothiri pUja paddhatis which he claims to have studied. I will be happy to review them and compare/contrast with previous pUja paddhatis which I have seen.

I can only repeat that even if the Nambudiri brahmins have preserved the practice of ancient shrauta rituals faithfully it does not mean that the tantric pujas they have equally well preserved, (following medieveal source texts), must be of the same antiquity.

Again, it was not I who claimed that they were of the same antiquity, but you who claimed that the pUjas were not of the same antiquity. Being unable to prove that, you are now claiming that we have not proven that they are. The burden of proof lies on the challenger to tradition, and you have not proven your views by any reasonable standard of evidence.

I can also only repeat that in the ancient vedic shrauta rituals that have been carefully and secretly, preserved most of what is practised in modern Hinduism is missing and has developed or has been assimilated at a later date and, besides some vedic norms and customs, these tantras contains a considerable assimilation of non vedic practises, deities, customs and norms.

It is such a process that has been giving birth to the development of the medieveal religion we now call Hinduism. Tantric, agamic and puranic traditions which make up the majority of customs of modern Hinduism have very little in common with the traditional vedic religion.

In other words, you are just repeating the very thing you failed to prove in the first place. Hence, my opinion that repeating unproven theories until they are accepted as truthful is your MO.

[MahaHrada]

If some of your saliva drops out of your mouth while you speak is it burning a hole in the table? Just curious.

[shiv.somashekhar]

If I may suggest, the history of temples and idol worship in Hinduism deserves its own thread.

[satay]

Namaste,

If some of your saliva drops out of your mouth while you speak is it burning a hole in the table? Just curious.

Disappointing to say the least.

[satay]

namaste,
A copy of Vedic Culture can be downloaded from www.hindudharmaforums.com/VedicCulture.pdf

Sorry about the delay in uploading.

Thanks,

Namaste

Is there any chance of uploading your copy of 'Vedic Culture' by Swami Mahadevananda Giri? Maybe Omkara can put it in his library. I looked all over for a copy of it, and while it is obviously a very respected book since it was often referenced in footnotes by other Hindu savants and adepts, I could not find the actual edition.

I noticed that the Swami was so respected, there is even a college in West Bengal in his memory. I read a bit of his biographical background, Swami Mahadevananda Giri became the first President of the Sri Sri Bholananda Sanyas Ashram in Haridwar.

Om Namah Sivaya