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Thread: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

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    Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste,

    The recent attack on our defense apparatus in JK and the senseless reaction to the precious loss of life by our honorable Home minister was forcing me to start a thread titled "Shameless, Thy name is Indian Hindus" under Mera Bhaarath Mahaan section. As we have been electing this Government for almost half century ever since the faux nick named as Indian Independence inspite of repeated similar incidents throughout I couldn't find any better adjective.

    When ever a grave shameful incident occur, it has been our practise to blame it as the effects of Kaliyug. This predictable reaction wasn't acceptable to me, though I as an individual doesn't have the spine do anything that would change the system.

    To pacify myself, I started reading materials explaining the demon Kali and about different Yugaas. Now readers would be wondering why this thread appearing in this section?

    According my primitive understanding The demon Kali, Kali Yug and Kalki avtaar of Sreeman Naaraayan seem to go hand in hand. The "Sambhavaami yuge yuge" quote from BG support my view. But Hinduism is not just Vaishnava's way of thinking alone. Some Shaivites from the South even go the extent of differentiating their perspective entirely from Vedic / Puraanic beliefs and ideologies.

    So, I would like to know whether the concept of Kali yug and the expected incarnation of Kalki Avtaar of Sreeman Naaraayan is acceptable to Shaivites?

    Again I reiterate that my understanding on this subject is very much limited to information scattered on the web, so I am curious to know How Shaiva Siddhaantha view the growing anarchy in present world and what are the remedial measures explained in Shaiva scriptures.

    If moderators or readers feel that this thread doesn't fit in this section, Kindly move it to the appropriate one.

    Pranaam!!
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    I have also read that Shaiva Siddhantins do not beleive in avatars, but I am not sure how widespread this belief is, and whether Shaiva Siddhanta acharyas also beleived this.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste.

    That sounds like a terrible predicament for those Hindus and Shaivites living in India.

    Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I don't, so I can only try to empathise about corrupt governments and mass violence. We are pretty lucky in the West, but not without our fair share of troubles either.

    How far does blaming 'Kali Yuga' go towards explaining it though? Is it our place to throw up our hands and go 'oh, it's just Kali Yuga and such things happen, so we should let them'.

    Granted, it does...but being apathetic about it and blaming it all on the 'age' is quite comforting isn't it?

    I also thought that Goddess Kali and Kali Yuga were/are two different things with a slight difference in pronunciation.

    As a Shaiva (that doesn't live in India), I wouldn't vote if my religion said I didn't have to, or if I had to, I would do so informally and not take an interest in politics or what the heads of state do..

    As long as I am meditating, doing yoga, worshipping Lord Shiva...there wouldn't be any view on 'anarchy' only nihilism.

    Aum Namah Shivaya

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Vannakkam: My view, as a Saivite, is that the world is in a perfect state (pause) .... of evolution.

    The world changes, and this is all Siva's dance. We can worry about peak oil, pollution, global warming, growing anarchy, whatever we wish. But is it doomsday? Probably not. Is it change? Definitely yes. Is it 'good' change? Maybe. maybe not.

    So we sit back and watch. Sanatana Dharma cannot be destroyed, because its in the inner ethers, and the truth is eternal, in the non-physical. If every Hindu was destroyed, somewhere, some day, a being would sit down, sit still, have some keen reflections, explore that some more, and eventually realise the Self, the truth we know today as Sanatana Dharma. It may have a different language, a different name, but it will remain the same truth. Why? Because that's what it is ... the Sanatana Dharma, the eternal truth. You can't wipe it out.

    One day this planet will no longer exist in the conditions that allow for souls to inhabit these kinds of bodies. Well, there are other planets, and other kinds of bodies. The souls may pack up and leave. it's Siva's dance, and its eternal.

    As far as Kali Yuga goes, its a great time, because the 'low' exists, to motivate us to go 'high'. So for those souls who do see it as a prime time, it really is. it takes great willpower to avoid the instinctive nature, and bombardment of the senses, to have affectionate detachment, something we just wouldn't have in other yugas. And what do you really need to attain moksha? Willpower and lots of it.

    As far as avatars go, I don't believe in them. It makes no sense to me that God, in his infinite wisdom, causal nature, intrinsic, would ever choose to inhabit a body. It seems somehow belittling. However, I do believe in the idea of great teachers.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Vannakkam,

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    One day this planet will no longer exist in the conditions that allow for souls to inhabit these kinds of bodies. Well, there are other planets, and other kinds of bodies. The souls may pack up and leave. it's Siva's dance, and its eternal.

    As far as Kali Yuga goes, its a great time, because the 'low' exists, to motivate us to go 'high'.


    Aum Namasivaya
    Couldn't have been put any better, especially the last line on Kali Yuga.


    Aum Namah Shivaya

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste,
    Thank you all for sharing your view points.

    In a nutshell what I gather is even Shaivites do not worry about the Evil around and keep their focus on Moksha.

    @ EM,
    I understand that you have shared your personal opinion based on your understanding of the scriptures.

    @ Omkara,
    Namaste,
    I have read that Maa Kaali, Kaarthikeyaji, Hari Hara ji and Ganesh ji have slayed many Asurs. Are their any references of Shivji slaying Asurs in our scriptures?
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste Necromancer,

    i cannot talk for every one. My perception about Indian politics is, in India, common man is a expendable resource. When it comes to looting public, all politicians irrespective of their Ideology gang up.

    Here in India, the Supreme court will direct and the central government will hang a person as he was proven terrorist but there will be protest in state assembly (say Jammu and Kashmir) will shower respect the same person who was hanged on charges masterminding a terrorist attack on parliament building. Ironically ruling coalition at the central government also include the same party which glorified a terrorist in the state assembly.

    It happens only in India, because country is ruled by Pseudo secularist.

    Besides the Indian politics I want to know the views of Shaiva Siddhaantha Aachaaryaas on the growing Anarchy.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste.

    I know not why I am about to narrate this tale in response to the question. I feel compelled.

    It happened way back when.....Lord Shiva snubbed and ignored King Daksha during an important Puja.

    As Daksha entered, everybody rose up from their seated positions, Lord Shiva did not. Suffice to say, the King became furious and was highly arrogant towards Lord Shiva from that moment on.

    Leaders and politicians are like puppets all controlled by Lord Shiva. He was just amusing himself in His own Lila at that point, like 'Chairman of the Bored'.

    Anyway, Mother Sati realised what was going on...and the growing anarchy within the kingdom her father's anger, pride and arrogance had created and She tried in vain to get her father to apologise to Her Husband and restore Shaivism in the Kingdom to unite the community and make everybody peaceful.

    She ended up becoming a martyr at his total refusal and subsequent criticism of Her Husband.

    Lord Shiva was bored no more and became an Avatar Himself - Veerabhadra (Om Veerabhadraya Namah) to destroy Daksha's Sacrifice after that.

    It has reference to the topic...as far as 'politics' goes.

    To answer your question...

    Who ends up destroying the World/Universe...Lord Kalki or a form of Lord Shiva? is anybody's guess.

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Are their any references of Shivji slaying Asurs in our scriptures?
    Namaste.

    I forgot to reply to this. I am sure a few cases exist (I cannot recall any at the moment) but not many of them.

    Why's that you may ask?

    Because Lord Shiva is also the Deity for many of the Asuras and they worship Him.

    *reference made to Aditi and Diti (the sister-mothers of the 'Divine Race'). Yes, they were all first cousins.

    It was part of the pledge that was taken between the Demigods and the Demons when the Milk Ocean was churned up and my beloved Lord Neelakantha drank the poison thereof...

    So, when an Asura falls short of Lord Shiva (usually due to a boon He, Himself granted them), he can't get involved and usually gets another God or Divine Being to do His 'dirtywork' for him. Other than that, He doesn't care much.

    That's how it usually is in regards to that.

    *Edit - I just recalled a time - Lord Shiva Nataraja killed the Demon Apasmara - The Epilepsy Demon.

    Aum Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by Necromancer; 20 March 2013 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Edited

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    Re: Shaivite view on growing anarchy?

    Namaste Anirudh

    When I first read the posting a few days back, though emotions aspired to respond, and more for the reason of the sheer joy of participating in this discussion -- three subjects literally screamed at me to participate – AVATARS, KALI YUGA, KALKI. But then instinct told me to hold back, and wait.

    The reason was, in regards to the question of Avatars.

    As a Shaiva, I have been taught that Shiva does not have incarnations (Avatars), though He does have manifestations. But I have also always been accepting of Vaishnavas, who discuss Vishnu having incarnations or Avatars. Even though I accept what I have understood as the teaching that Shiva does not have incarnations, this did not mean to me that Vishnu does not. I have always been accepting of Vishnu having some Avatars – to be honest, whether a particular presence of one of the Devas or Devi is a manifestation or incarnation is interesting but the very presence of such, the history and revelations from Whom, and the experience of being a Hindu with the Divine is more paramount to this experience than whether it comes from a manifestation or an incarnation.

    There are many temples in the United States which have Murthis of Saiva, Vaishnav and Shakta all in one temple. This is especially true for those temples which fall under the category of “Community Centers”. I typically find myself in a temple where Shiva, Vishnu or Devi are all present as residents. And recently, I was reading in a very interesting archeological study that in South India, the most ancient temples including some which no longer exist also typically had Murthis of all three Traditions, this was especially true of Saiva temples though less so for Vaishnav temples. Some aspects of this changed in the modern temples hundreds of years later, however you can still find examples of this even in India and not just in the United States albeit temples with Murthis from all three Traditions is more of a convenience for the Indian community in the US where there are less local temples found than in India (though this is becoming less so, there are now temples in many cities and towns).

    So I often find myself before a Divinity Whom some refer to as an Avatar, and I give dutiful worship as is expected and willingly so with joy.

    Before I responded, I decided to wait to see if Eastern Mind would give a response. He did, and it was an outstanding reply, so full of wisdom. Also, I waited because I decided that very day when I read this post to write a letter to monks of a Saiva Siddhanta Sampradaya.

    I wrote to the monks of this Saiva Siddhanta Sampradya to ask the following question after apologizing for taking their time from duties with personal inquiry and with the promise not to abuse such. The section of my inquiry directly pertinent to the question of Vishnu is below.

    My question to the Saiva monks was: “As a Saiva, I understand that we are taught that Lord Shiva does not have incarnations or what is called in Sanskrit avatars. I prefer to use the word manifestation, that our Lord Mahadeva can have manifestations, but there are no incarnations of Shiva. But saying that Lord Shiva does not have avatars is NOT the same thing as saying Lord Vishnu also does not have avatars … WHAT IS THE SAIVA SIDDHANTA POSITION, AND THE TEACHINGS OF SATGURU, IN REGARDS TO VAISHNAVA AVATARS? Even though my understanding is that, we do not believe in avatars of Shiva, does that also mean we do not believe in avatars of Vishnu? Or do we acknowledge that Vishnu has avatars?”

    Tonight at the end of my work, I received a personal reply to my question from this Saiva Siddhanta Sampradaya from one who is called Param. Below is the exact quote answering my question:

    “I help answer questions on behalf of the mathavasi … You are correct that the concept of avatars is not part of Saivism. However, we acknowledge and respect the beliefs of the other three sects – including the belief in avatars.”

    With this response, I feel I can now give my emotions full reign as the “rascal Saiva” that I am known to be.

    AVATARS

    My understanding as taught to me is that, Lord Shiva does not have incarnations, but He does have manifestations. I acknowledge and respect that Vishnu has incarnations (avatars). And I am very happy to say so.

    KALI YUGA

    I strongly adhere to what I have been instructed many times, that yes we cycle through Yugas, that this is the Kali Yuga. And while some are now frowning on the use of the term “in my opinion”, sometimes you simply cannot avoid productive use of the term when it is appropriate and when you are also clarifying that you are revealing what is your EXPERIENCE as a Hindu.

    It is my opinion upon observation and experience, that society is indeed becoming more debased. I am sorely concerned regarding this. I have great joy in my life, and great associations that bring my life in union with the Divine. Around me are the many dangers of the Kali Yuga. Yes, the anarchy is growing.

    KALKI

    This will (“in my opinion”) probably be the most controversial response of mine, though I already have a reputation as the “rascal Shiva”, but really I am not much of a rascal and more of a happy adventurer.

    I am a great admirer of the ancient Sage Yajnavalkya. This is because of a Saiva in Varanasi. He was a wise savant. He told me that the Black and White Yajurveda came from the “revelation” of Sage Yajnavalkya Whom we must give respects.

    He also told me that this ancient Vedic Sage will appear again in the future.

    That He will be the teacher to one called Kalki. This Sage has Eight powers in One Mansion. He will give instruction of the Yajurved to Kalki so that Kalki will set the example of the need to take instruction from the Sages. All Eight Powers are then revealed by Kalki at that time in the future.

    So I believe “in my opinion”, that this Kalki is the very same Kalki know as the one who is associated with the Horse, who carries the Sword once held by Lord Shiva, and will come at the end of the Kali Yuga. It may be the case that beloved Saivas do not think I am of right mind or sound judgment, but I also know there are Saivas who think I am a very nice Hindu.
    Recently I was reading a doctrine study of Saiva Siddhanta which came from a communion of many advanced Saivas. They spoke of something called “Pluralistic realism”. Two realities can exist side by side. Typically this is thought of as impossible. But not according to Saivas who are siddhars or mystics and have had the grace of revelation to them, which can come from Pati or the Lord.

    For example the Saints such as the Nayanmars came in direct communion with the Divine. To Them, the Divine Communion was not a discussion, a philosophy, and dialectic on sacred texts of Veda, but an experience. Saiva Siddhanta sees the possibility of multiple realities, of motion or activity as giving the ability to engage in a path, and as communion being an experience and not an inquiry.

    “In my opinion” (experience), I agree with that!

    Om Namah Sivaya

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