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Thread: subtleties in the gītā

  1. #11
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?

    Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #12
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Dear Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?
    iti śivaṁ
    Our POV

    Lord Krishna enters the field of battle as a mere driver of Arjunas equipage, though he represents God or the Absolute, where Arjuna represents the status of Man.

    Still Lord obeys the command of Man as a dutiful servant.

    1:21 Arjuna commands: acyuata sthapayame ratham madhye ubhayor senayor

    Stop my chariot right in the middle between the two armies.

    1:24 Krishana obeys: Krishna sthapayitva rathottamam madhye ubhayor senayor

    Krishna stationed the magnificent chariot midway between the two armies.


    This Master- Servant situation continues until we reach verse 7 of the second chapter, which is the Zero Hour for Arjuna.


    2:7 Pracchami tvam, yat syaat nischitam sreyah tat broohi me aham tvam sishya, saadhi maam prapannam

    I ask you, that which is definitely more meritorious do indicate to me. I am your disciple; do discipline me, coming thus for your refuge.

    Thus Sri. Vyasa designates another status to Arjuna as a Disciple from his previous position as a King or Master and Krishna begins the role of a Guru instead of being merely a Charioteer who brings Arjuna's chariot into the midst of the ranged armies.

    Arjuna himself thus attains a new position as a representative disciple who belongs the Guru- Shishya context proper and the entire teaching begins here from now on .

    ------
    Note: It is striking to note first of all that Arjuna's conflict is carried over from the previous chapter, where we should normally have expected it to terminate.


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


    iti śivaṁ

    Verse 2:16 could be treated as the most important teaching and the essence of the whole of Bhagavad Gita.

    Asatah na vidyate bhaavah, tu abhaava na vidyate satah
    What is unreal (asat) cannot have being (bhava), and non-being (abhava) cannot be real (sat).

    Sri. Vyasa puts it explicitly the inseparable oneness of being and becoming.

    The world has no existence apart from the one Reality, and this Reality cannot exist other than in the form of the world.

    However, on the contrary, the conclusion in regard to both of these, the being and becoming, has been known to seers of Ultimate Reality.

    2:16 continues...

    Antah api ubhayor anayor, drishtah tattvadarshibhih


    The inherent truth of these two has thus been perceived by the Seers of Reality.

    Rest of the chapters of the Gita are the systematic exposition of this specific secret in different angles.

    Love
    Last edited by brahman; 22 March 2013 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Spell check
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  3. #13
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

    It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
    This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 March 2013 at 06:50 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

    It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
    This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

    iti śivaṁ
    Dear Yajvan,


    THERE is no disagreement in choosing verse 2:12 as the meridian of wisdom with the aim of readying ourselves attuned for the purpose of self realization.

    Our POV in more purified non-dualistic parlance

    Every single chapter of the Bhagavad Gita is named after the word Yoga, which is not the yoga that is suffixed to Hatha, Raja , Nada etc. as it is more usually expressed in modern parlance.

    Yoga is conceived in a wider sense in the Gita. Yoga literally means union. It is etymologically related to the English termto yoke. The Bhagavad Gita employs a type of reasoning which is more dialectical than linear or inferential. Dialectical reasoning in Sanskrit is called Yoga Mimaamsa.


    The Sat and Bhava are so interlaced in yoga that they cannot be dualistically separated is already seen the verse 16 of the Second chapter.

    Sat and Bhava

    In general, Sat of Vedanta, is meant to represent the Absolute, which is Sat, Cit and Ananda at once.

    When the Absolute is considered as Sat(general), its manifested forms in the impersonal sense are called Bhava.

    Sat, Cit and Ananda, in the personal experiential sense are termed as Asti, Bhati and Priya respectively.


    Significance of Asti, Bhati, Priya in chapter2 (from 2:12- 2:14)

    The Asti(sat) aspect of the absolute in verse 12.
    Sat(existence) is experienced by each person as our own experience of existence called Asti.

    2:12 Further, never was I non-existent, nor you nor these chiefs
    of men; neither shall we, all of us, ever cease becoming
    hereafter.


    The Bhati(cit) aspect of the Absolute in verse 13.
    Cit (consciousness) is experienced as the bright functional facets of ones own mind called Bhati.

    2:13 As there is here in the body for the embodied, childhood,
    youth, old age, so also the passing on to another body
    in the same manner; those firm in mind are not thereby
    bewildered.


    The Priya(Ananda) aspect of the absolute in verse 14.
    Ananda(Value sense) becomes actual in life as ones likes and dislikes as Priya.

    2:14 Momentary sense contacts on the other hand, 0 Kaunteya
    (Arjuna), yielding cold-warmth, joy-pain, alternately
    coming and going, are transitory. Do you endure them, 0
    Bharata (Arjuna).


    Verse 15 makes one qualifying for immortality.
    2:15 That man indeed of firm mind who is unaffected by these, 0
    Best of Men (Arjuna), equal-minded in joy as well as pain,
    he is destined for immortality.


    The Secret is being declared as fact in the verse 16
    What is unreal (asat) cannot have being (bhava), and non-being (abhava) cannot be real (sat); the conclusion in regard to both these has been known to Seers of Reality. (see previous post)


    Conclusion

    In our observation, we understand that, Sri. Vyasa is making a firm ground for teaching wisdom, right from the 12th verse itself to revealing the secret of Yoga (as stated above) in the 16th verse. Love
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  5. #15

    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast

    When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?

    Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


    iti śivaṁ
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

    It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
    there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
    This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

    iti śivaṁ
    Pranams,

    I don't understand the need to point out a single verse to summarize the gItA, when the entire gItA is one integrated teaching, with each chapter building on or expanding upon the subjects introduced in previous chapters.

    That being said, the verses of chapter 2 cannot by any means be said to represent the essence of this scripture. Chapter 2 is simply the foundation for the rest of what follows, discussing as it does the basics of jnaana, differentiating between the temporary body and the eternal self. Jnaana is the foundation of karma-yoga, which is discussed later, and Sri Krishna's teaching is designed to make Arjuna understand karma-yoga and its importance as a devotional act. The rest of the gItA is not an exposition of verse 2.12. Verse 2.12 is preliminary knowledge needed to understand the rest of the gItA.

    Some traditions hold that the "seed verses" of the gItA are in chapter 10.

    Bg 10.8 I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
    Bg 10.9 The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are fully devoted to My service, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me.
    Bg 10.10 To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.
    Bg 10.11 To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.
    These verses are obviously not an exposition of verse 2.12, which merely states the eternal nature of the conscious living entity. Indeed, the knowledge contained here is unmistakably theistic and devotional. Lord Krishna is the source of everything. Everything. The devotees derive great bliss from conversing about, and serving Him. Sri Krishna is the one who gives the buddhi by which such devotees reach Him. In other words, one ultimately has to have His grace to get to the supreme goal.The verses following this begin with Arjuna's acceptance of these points, and his request for Sri Krishna to describe His representations in this world. This is in keeping with the principle of His all-pervasivenss as the inner controller of all other entities. Whatever is great about these other entities is thus entirely due to Sri Krishna only.

    The principle of His all-pervasiveness is expanded upon in chapter 11 when Arjuna requests Krishna to display His universal form. Upon behold that magnificent form pervading the entire universe and beyond, Arjuna says:

    Bg 11.32 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Time I am, the great destroyer of the worlds, and I have come here to destroy all people. With the exception of you [the Pāṇḍavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.
    Bg 11.33 Therefore get up. Prepare to fight and win glory. Conquer your enemies and enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasācī, can be but an instrument in the fight.
    Bg 11.34 Droṇa, Bhīṣma, Jayadratha, Karṇa and the other great warriors have already been destroyed by Me. Therefore, kill them and do not be disturbed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies in battle.
    And this is why Arjuna must fight. Because in the end, Sri Krishna has ordained that this battle will take place and that these warriors will be destroyed. Arjuna can fail to do his duty, and thus remain enslaved in the cycle of birth and rebirth, or carry out his scripturally-ordained duties in a spirit of dedicating their fruits to the Lord, and thus attain perfection.

    There is no one word in the bhagavad-gItA that is wasted. Every verse that is there has to be there, and the knowledge of the gItA builds up to a climax in the 18th chapter when the Lord directs Arjuna to give up the pursuit of fruitive activities and just surrender unto Him.

    sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja |
    ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ || gItA 18.66 ||
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  6. #16
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so. But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?
    We too can answer this question another way... by being directed to chapter 6, 16th śloka), we are informed :
    yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.


    If one reads this and only thinks kṛṣṇa-jī is talking of food and of sleep for the person wishing to attain to yoga will miss the subtlety of the wisdom that is offered.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast

    We too can answer this question another way... by being directed to chapter 6, 16th śloka), we are informed :
    yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.


    If one reads this and only thinks kṛṣṇa-jī is talking of food and of sleep for the person wishing to attain to yoga will miss the subtlety of the wisdom that is offered.

    iti śivaṁ
    Dear Yajvan,

    A person forced by the dark forces of Tamas, may become gluttonous or abstemious, he can even remain too awake or too sleepy.

    Therefore he has to go the hard way until such tendencies are polished and rounded off in order to attain the state of yoga, for Yogi is not a man of extremes.

    In a windless place, however, where the extraneous factors causing the flickering are absent, the flame just burns on. 2:19

    It requires only the removal of what is extraneous to the situation. Love
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  8. #18
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.

    When the Lord speaks of eating, it is the notion of feeding the senses; this includes the tongue, but is not exclusive to what one puts into their digestive track. It is what's taken in by the eyes, ears, nose, etc. He is speaking to us about not being excessive in habits.
    He calls for moderation and uses the term yukta in the next śloka (6, 17th śloka).

    Now this too, also has a subtler meaning. Yukta means 'fit , suitable , appropriate , proper , right', yet it also means 'yoked or joined or fastened or attached or harnessed'. What then can be the deeper meaning here?

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast

    When the Lord speaks of eating, it is the notion of feeding the senses; this includes the tongue, but is not exclusive to what one puts into their digestive track. It is what's taken in by the eyes, ears, nose, etc. He is speaking to us about not being excessive in habits.

    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    iti śivaṁ
    Dear Yajvan,


    Our previous post :

    Therefore he has to go the hard way until such tendencies are polished and rounded off in order to attain the state of yoga, for Yogi is not a man of extremes.
    When we say tendencies, it is not the senses alone, for sleep is not associated with any senses.

    Definitely the food part of the sloka represents the 5 senses as distinguished from the mind; however, the sleep part of the sloka comes within the ambit of consciousness.

    The chapter is called Dhayana Yoga.

    In order to transcend the phenomenality of the world and get established in the eternal dream, an aspirant is advised NOT to oscillate his consciousness in between the extremes of sleep and waking (during mediation) is also meant here. Love


    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

  10. #20
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    Re: subtleties in the gītā

    Continued
    ---------------

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast


    Now this too, also has a subtler meaning. Yukta means 'fit , suitable , appropriate , proper , right', yet it also means 'yoked or joined or fastened or attached or harnessed'. What then can be the deeper meaning here?

    iti śivaṁ


    Uchyate yukta (verse 8), aseeta yukta (verse 14), yukta aahara(verse 17) etc.

    Though the word Yukta is used differently in several verses of the same chapter, a definition proper to the frame of reference of the chapter (the unitive contemplation) is given in the verse 18 of the same chapter.

    When the subdued relational mind stays in the Self itself, desireless of all desires, then (it) is said to be united.

    Also the chapter ends with the verse:

    Of all yogis, he who with the inner Self is merged in Me (the Absolute) full of faith, devoted to Me, is considered by Me the most Unitive- Yuktatamah. Love
    ॐ इदम् न मम
    be just l we happy

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