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Thread: Collective National Karma?

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    Collective National Karma?

    Namaste

    Is there collective karma? (viz “national karma”) …

    There seems to be no karma without a person to cause it and feel the effects? This is the understanding – but can “nations” cause it and feel the effects?

    Karma has effects that come from causes, cannot nations have effects that come from causes?

    I hear of the “karma of this earth”. So is that a collective karma? One could point out that the aggregate of many individuals karma can become the spirit of the nation for good or bad, and thus “indirect karma of a nation”. But let us take two examples – Germany and India.

    Germany (under the Nazi’s) committed many, many acts that would be the judgment of most Hindu saints, Gurus and Savants as “bad”. At the fall of Nazi Germany in 1945, obviously there were consequences and pain felt by the Germans, but this could be argued is only from the perspective of the consequences of war and of losing a war, as well as the international courts of the victorious side of the war in holding those who committed war crimes against human dignity, racial crimes and so on, guilty and thus either given death or severe penalty.

    But by 1949 and into 1950, one could argue that most Germans, if not all excluding the few who faced or were facing war crimes, were suffering not at all. Today Germany, despite the overall degradation of society in the West (but also even in India, see below), are not suffering, certainly not for the acts perpetrated by the Nazi’s from the 1930’s until 1945.

    So if there was such a thing as “collective karma” or “national karma”, perhaps it only lasts at most 2 years? Or were all those individuals who were guilty, given horrific or bad karma in their next life, perhaps not born in Germany but in some horrible flea-bitten and dangerous poverty stricken nation, perhaps in Africa for example living in a village that is constantly under attack my militias and with polluted water?

    It seems however, “Germany” as a nation actually suffered very little, albeit there was a lot of suffering in the final year of the war and the few years just after. But if there is something called “national karma”, it seems Germany as an identity of nation suffered zero karma. What we call Germany is wealthy, the people content, the water pure and so on. They are certainly well fed.

    Now let us take India.

    I see the degradation of the West, and it disturbs me. I hope the teachings of Hinduism can reverse this trend in the West. I see bad karma coming. But for whom? Because, sometimes I watch Indian Television including scenes from “Bollywood movies” – and I am becoming disgusted. The same degradation seems to have been imported (or adopted) in India. And now of late, I see a trend of such where, while vaguely cloaking a “critical perspective of the West” and “pride in culture”, in fact it is very convoluted in that they seem to want to all be filmed in London (for example), the stars are dressed as a Western man or woman, they dance Western debase dancing (it doesn’t even resemble Indian dance in any manner), even the tunes are now losing their “Indian identity” and starting to sound like rap music which I consider isn’t music at all but animal emotions and violent maya.

    Will India soon suffer “collective karma” or “national karma”?

    This might be an interesting topic. Wasn’t sure exactly where to put it – I think the best fit is Scripture. After all, I love and believe in the Ramayana. We hear that under Ram Raj, the people of the Raj were blessed. Of course, Rama as the Leader was Divine. I hope soon we will have such a Divine Leader again! But was the benefit of this Raj, simply because of Rama? Did Ram Raj have “collective karma”? What do the scriptures say? What do the Devas and Devi say? What do the Gurus say? What do the Saints say? What do the Hindus say?

    Om Namah Sivaya


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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    In many of my posts and related discussions, I had mentioned that minds of lower level contribute towards mind of higher level. Minds of cells contribute towards organs, minds of organ towards human. Minds of human towards society, minds of societies towards country, minds of countries towards world ... minds of all towards mind of God. This is the pyramid. Out of God's mind creation happens.

    Yes that way each country has mind and it is visible to one who is outside of it. Pakistan behaves in one way, India behaves in one way, Germany behaves in one way. Out of their actions inactions the karmas are there and the state of their minds.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Namaste Kallol

    Interesting!

    Namaste Next One

    Sounds like one (Kallol) sees truth or teachings that confirm collective karma or national karma... My apologies if I am mistaken.

    Others? Any Gurus out there? How about scripture, Purana, Agama, examples in the Histories of Devas and Devi? Vedantists? Or do each speak of only individual karma?

    When does the mind get lost to the collective? Is this mind its own person which moves among us? Does it have its own karma?

    The Vedas say how a sacrifice can bring rain, a worship can bring cows, feeding Agni can bring peace. To whom? To all? And when it is done wrongly, who shares the karma? All?

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Namaste.

    According to Random Number Event Generation, beings on the Earth have a 'collective consciousness'.

    If 'collective consciousness' exists, then so does 'collective karma'.

    Just something to ponder upon:
    http://www.damninteresting.com/rando...ct-the-future/

    Aum Namah Shivaya

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Namaste Necromancer

    Also interesting!

    Namaste Next One

    So it looks like there are two insights that speak of collective karma!

    But what does scripture say?

    In fact, what would be the Sanskrit word for "collective karma"? Or "national karma"? A even to the point, is there even such as thing as "Hindu Nation"? I know we have Kingdoms, and we have regions, but is there an example of "nation" (with borders)? We know that great Rajas sent out a selected horse to transverse from one Kingdom to the next as part of the initial phase of the horse sacrifice. Does this then speak to the existence of "Hindu Nations"?

    Do "Hindu Nations" have "National karma"? What would the Sanskrit term for that be?

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Namaste

    Swami Shankarananda Giri says karma is " the constant interaction of breath and Soul". So if that is correct, and if there is "collective karma", then does that mean the collective (or nation if you will) has a soul?

    If karma can be the history of the self, can it also be the history of the collective selves?

    If there is a individual "destiny", cannot there also be a "human destiny"? And if individual destiny is decided by a hierarchy of resulting karma, then should not the collective human destiny also be so decided or colored?

    From the Ramayana, it is understood that Lord Ram ruled Bharata Desha from Ayodhya for a long time, and was known as Ram Rajya - then, and even today this is seen as the same meaning that there was not found the Adhi Daivika from Devas/Devi meaning no earthquakes, floods or famine (crop failures). So Bharata Desha throughout the land was free from these three things - was it so simply thanks to the Divinity of Rama, was this place called Bharata Desha free from earthquake, flood and famine thanks to the collective (good) karma (or lack of cause and effect towards bad karma) of the citizens of Ayodhya?

    In California, we have many earthquakes. But we know the science of plate tectonics and its role in earthquakes. India has its share of earthquakes as well. Yet we also are instructed of Adhi Daivika or God created earthquakes. An earthquake effects many, many people, potentially causing massive death, destruction, even tsunamis if taken place in the sea - why would God or the Devas or Devi do this? Is karma also something that is brokered out by God, and in this example - to many people and thus karma is being unfolded, even instant karma, by the Hand of the Deva or Devi and not just some "law" or "action"? And in the example of earthquakes, wouldn't this be an example of "collective karma"?

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    If you can explore my earlier posts there was a dicussion with Devoteeji on the minds and various levels and their influence on each other.

    The lower minds contribute to higher minds unknowingly. The higher minds does not know the lower minds but influences them through their activities.

    They do not know each other but influences each other.

    The whole system is designed like that.

    Say the digestive organ in not working properly. The mind at human level is influenced and he does not feel well. So the activities at organ level influences the mind at human level. That is why satvik foods allow better condition minds at human level. Foods have effect on human minds.

    Now what does that human do for his digestive system malfunction. He takes a corrective action. Now that corrective action may or may not correct the organ. That is how all levels act.

    Based on the condition of countries mind the actions are taken, which influences the societies and then the people and then their organs and then the cells. Say country takes decision on having polluting industries. The effect will percolate down to cell level. Country goes to war - it affects the people and down.

    Depending on the final karmaphals at God's level the creation is started. The karmaphals can be taken as frequencies. If there is residual frequencies left in the mind of God then that frequency will result in subtle matters and gross matters. Like an ocean. If it is calm - no frequencies or waves - no froth (compared with gross matter / subtle matter). If there is little frequency there will be little waves - subtle matters. If the frequency is high, then waves will be large and we will see froth (gross matter) on top of waves.

    It basically boils down to - kind of frequencies at various levels.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Vannakkam: Yes, I believe in group karma. Families, gangs, states, sampradayas, countries, organisations. Being a member of any group puts is in some kind of way responsible for the actions of the group. Of course it would vary by individual, with the leaders sustaining more karma than the followers. Sometimes it is just your individual karma to be part of a particular group, even though in this lifetime you aren't particularly proud of it.
    For example, I'm not particularly happy or proud to be Canadian right now, given out penchance for polluting the planet, amongst other adharmic activities. But it is my karma to be part of it, so all I can do is my best to not contribute on a personal level.

    But we all pay taxes, and if those taxes go to a war, what can we do?

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Collective National Karma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: Yes, I believe in group karma. Families, gangs, states, sampradayas, countries, organisations. Being a member of any group puts is in some kind of way responsible for the actions of the group. Of course it would vary by individual, with the leaders sustaining more karma than the followers. Sometimes it is just your individual karma to be part of a particular group, even though in this lifetime you aren't particularly proud of it.
    For example, I'm not particularly happy or proud to be Canadian right now, given out penchance for polluting the planet, amongst other adharmic activities. But it is my karma to be part of it, so all I can do is my best to not contribute on a personal level.

    But we all pay taxes, and if those taxes go to a war, what can we do?

    Aum Namasivaya

    Namaste EM

    Yes, this all connects with what I believe I am understanding as taught by Saiva Siddhanta. You, and others are giving confidence in this.

    Namaste All

    Is there a best way or term to use in Sanskrit for collective karma?

    Om Namah Sivaya

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