Worship of sanyasis/saints

[Viraja]

Namaste,

In our Hindu custom, we worship many saints exactly the same way we worship the deities - we recite stotras (slokas) to the sannyasis (saints) and offer them food and consume this food as prasad.

But when we think upon them carefully, we realize they have been living as ordinary mortals (though they may have performed miracles) and are/were not exactly omnipresent/omniscient as god is.

So my question is whether they having attained moksha supposedly endows them with omnipresence? Does attaining moksha grant one all pervasiveness? If not, then what makes worship of saints bear fruits? In other words, what qualifies the saint who does not live anymore the power to grant wishes, without him/her being omnipresent?

Thank you.

[Believer]

Namaste,

One way to look at it is that many a times we are told that serving/worshiping a true devotee of the Lord is like serving/worshiping the Lord Himself. Along those lines, when a prayer is said in worship of a saint, it is He that we are actually worshiping through our worship to the saint, and it is He who will respond in kind to our prayers/devotion/petitions.

Pranam.

[shiv.somashekhar]

Namaste,

In our Hindu custom, we worship many saints exactly the same way we worship the deities - we recite stotras (slokas) to the sannyasis (saints) and offer them food and consume this food as prasad.

But when we think upon them carefully, we realize they have been living as ordinary mortals (though they may have performed miracles) and are/were not exactly omnipresent/omniscient as god is.

So my question is whether they having attained moksha supposedly endows them with omnipresence? Does attaining moksha grant one all pervasiveness? If not, then what makes worship of saints bear fruits? In other words, what qualifies the saint who does not live anymore the power to grant wishes, without him/her being omnipresent?

Thank you.

He is always present as a soul. People believe Raghavendra is still active(somewhere) and has the ability to grant their wishes. Same with Sai Baba, etc. Such ideas are mostly driven by the need to believe in something that will solve insurmountable problems - a certain homa, trip to Tirupathi, Sai Bhajans, etc.

[yajvan]

　
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


We give praise to these beings because they are viśvamātmasātkaroti -
they experience unity with the universe. We give them praise because of this accomplishment.
They have left the herd (paśavya�). What does this mean ? They no longer are the paśutā the state of an animal i.e. in ignorance , being lead here and there by the senses.

We praise them ( jaya) because of their victory i.e. indriyāṇāṃjaya, victory over the senses. We praise them not for favors but for the accomplishment of saṃyamī - the person that is saṃyam - self controlled, held together. He or she is now the exponent of Reality in the flesh.

iti śivaṁ


1. paśavya- belonging to a herd; a herd or drove of cattle

[Seeker]

Namaste Viraja Ji,

In Thirumandhiram , there are several places where in Thirumoolar asserts that after a certain stage , Shiva morphs a devotee into Himself. Two such verses that stuck to my mind are verses 636 & 785.

[jignyAsu]

Namaste,

In our Hindu custom, we worship many saints exactly the same way we worship the deities - we recite stotras (slokas) to the sannyasis (saints) and offer them food and consume this food as prasad.

But when we think upon them carefully, we realize they have been living as ordinary mortals (though they may have performed miracles) and are/were not exactly omnipresent/omniscient as god is.

So my question is whether they having attained moksha supposedly endows them with omnipresence? Does attaining moksha grant one all pervasiveness? If not, then what makes worship of saints bear fruits? In other words, what qualifies the saint who does not live anymore the power to grant wishes, without him/her being omnipresent?

Thank you.

Not all of these popular saints may have attained moksha. If devas can attain the ability to answer prayers without being all pervasive by the grace of the Brahman, so can some souls by their karma be elevated to the same level.

After attaining moksha, as you know, there's some difference b/w sampradayas on what happens to the soul. Irrespective.."Param samyam" will confer upon them these abilities easily. Besides even if you consider the fact that God is more pleased with worshiping His bonafide devotees than worshiping Him, it will make sense.

One should be careful to not worship any and every "saint" as God in the name of Hinduism...especially be scared to deviate from the Vedic gods. Of course, all the above excludes swindlers and fakes. Those atheists who keep questioning the miracles etc are actually helpful to us in this regard.

[Viraja]

Thank you Believer, Yajvan ji, Seeker ji, jignyAsu for your insightful replies.

I liked Seeker ji's reference to Thirumandiram showing the saint attains some sort of 'oneness' with the supreme. I wonder what it is in Vishishtadvaita where such oneness is not possible.

I guess god himself accepts the prayers and offerings such as it is stated that when we offer pitru tarpanas to departed souls, in case they have already taken rebirth, then god himself accepts these offerings handed over through pitru devatas.

Thanks again everyone.

[Banarasi]

Namaskaaram:

One way to look at it is that many a times we are told that serving/worshiping a true devotee of the Lord is like serving/worshiping the Lord Himself. Along those lines, when a prayer is said in worship of a saint, it is He that we are actually worshiping through our worship to the saint, and it is He who will respond in kind to our prayers/devotion/petitions.

I agree with the viewpoint. In this corrupted yuga, the saints are the most loving beings sent by God. I think the practice is related to guru bhakti that is prevalent in our culture.

I would like to draw largely from Bhakta Vijayam. I would take the case of Gurus - ones who are only for the benefit of the people and not false ones (maybe someone who is a family guru or one we have chosen as our guru or who looks like an evolved yet loving sanyasi) and we are taught to respect gurus. Here, I think people place these saints/sanyasis on the same status as their gurus. As usual, my take is not grounded from the sacred texts but from stories and my own experiences. Please let me know if what I am saying is contradicting sacred texts and I will correct myself.

We are told "Mata Pita Guru deivam". Thus, guru is placed before deivam. Why? One explanation is from Sant Kabir's "Kaun bataave bhaat gurubina?" - Who but the guru will show the right path? In the song, Kabir also mentions (my recollection - may not be exact) that if he has the choice to make between the guru and God himself, he would choose the guru as he is most forgiving and willing to take time to correct the devotee from problems and guiding the shishya through the treacherous path that has thorns like moha, madha etc.

We have great saints who lived so. One is Sant Eknath who was serving his guru and while other students did their studies and moved on, Eknathji remained (for 12 years) and continued his steadfast sincere service to the school and his guru. One night, the guru was awakened by an exclamation and after inquiring, found Eknath elated that after several hours, he had accounted for a single paisa and was elated to do so. The guru said nothing to him but with a sad mind wondered " is this is the reward that my student deserves after several years of selfless service?". He prayed to his ishta-devata (I think it was Dattatreya ji) and requested him to grant darshan to Eknathji.

Next day, when Eknathji is continuing with his usual administrative duties, he asks if he had darshan. Eknathji says yes and the guru feels that the darshan has not moved him and he may have wasted this on someone so immersed in mudane affairs as Ekanathji and tells him so. Eknathji's response is that "Have I ever asked you to grant me darshan of God? I do not need it since for me you are no different to me than God. The only difference is that I can lovingly, with devotion and full rights serve you but not God." Here, we see Eknathji's placing guru above God. Probably because of this, Shri Krishna himself , as Ghantya Krishna served Eknathji for 12 years.

Does God approve, I believe certainly! I think the relationship between a true guru and his shishya is sacred and very loving. For example, Tirumalisaialwar tells the Lord that the king has banished his disciple Kanikkannnan - whose separation he cannot tolerate he is going to leave and since Shri Vishnu cannot live without him, he should roll up his belongings too. After a day, the king realizes his mistake and calls them back. Then, after everything is settled, the azhwar sees Vishnu Bhagavan still standing, he realizes that he has not instructed the god to recline again. He then, with extreme love and affection instructs him to do so and everything is normal again. Thus, we see God totally respecting the relationship of a true bhakta and his disciple.

In Ramcharitmanas, we have Shivji getting angry with Kakabhushundi for not respecting his guru and Tulsidas says that while the guru is merciful and does not get angry with the transgression of his student, Mahesha could not tolerate this and curses him. The guru then intercedes on the behalf of the student gets Shivji to make it less intense (In my opinion, this ultimately turned to Kakabhushundiji's advantage).

The takeaway for me is that the Guru is extremely kind, tolerant and puts up with the shortcomings of the student while purifying him. God may resort to tests or purifying trials that the student may be scared of.

I think there are many such stories in our history that is in our inherent behavior and consequently, we respect every saint we meet as s/he may be a great guru.

Also (treading on uncertain waters here as I am unsure of the text), Shri Hari says to Narada muni "Mad bhakta yatra jayati, tattra tishtaami narada" - I reside in the place where my bhakts go.

Unfortunately, today, there are many false gurus who have necissicated the term Satguru (Sat - guru = good - guru - in the older times, I am told, the Sat was redundant and not present) and thus people are rightly skeptical before showing utmost respect.

Jai Sitaram

[Amrut]

Namaste,

In our Hindu custom, we worship many saints exactly the same way we worship the deities - we recite stotras (slokas) to the sannyasis (saints) and offer them food and consume this food as prasad.

But when we think upon them carefully, we realize they have been living as ordinary mortals (though they may have performed miracles) and are/were not exactly omnipresent/omniscient as god is.

So my question is whether they having attained moksha supposedly endows them with omnipresence? Does attaining moksha grant one all pervasiveness? If not, then what makes worship of saints bear fruits? In other words, what qualifies the saint who does not live anymore the power to grant wishes, without him/her being omnipresent?

Thank you.

Namaste,

not much active online these days, but Guru Gita will give you answers. I have a copy of Guru Geeta by Nandlal Dashora in Hindi. which can be found here. Nandlal dashora has written commentaries on many shastras including brahma sutras.

Guru in Guru Gita mostly refers to Guru Tatva and not Physical body, though many times Guruis considered Ishwara Tulya and not Ishwara. there are hymms praising Guru and equating him as Lord, but are only for glorifications. From Advaita POV< Guru is the one who is Sat-Chit-Ananda, one with Brahman. So he is established in Atma-Sthiti.

I have collected some verses here, here and here.


---

In short from Adviata POV. (I hope I keep it short)

Guru = Shiva = Parvati (in different form, but not different from Shiva) = Brahman = Atman.

Meditate on Guru Tatva. Follow Guru tatva.

Guru according to Sri Ramakrishna is Sat-chit-Ananda. Guru is a 'madhyasthi' a middle man who unites devotee and God (Brahman).

Verses on Guru Gita are praises on Guru, Guru Tatva, and benefits of reading, writing and reciting Guru Gita.

Just like a national flag, which is just small piece of cloth, represent entire nation, Guru in physical form, represents Brahman.

Just like a idol / statue of God is small, but still represents the omnipresent God, all-pervading, all powerful God and just like Shaligram, etc formless stones represents Nirguna / Saguna Brahman / God, Guru in Physical form represents Nirguna Brahman.

Guru is representative and NOT actually Ishwara or can be compared with Avatars like Rama or Krishna. Just like worshipping an idol would mean worship to God, similarly worship of Guru means worship of supreme Brahman.

Just like Idol is NOT GOD, but the chitan tatva inside or residing in Idol after Prana Pratistha is God or his shakti, so a Guru is Brahman ONLY IF he is one with Brahman (from Advaita POV). We DO NOT worship IDOL, but GOD inside IDOL. Idol is a means of our communication with infinite God, so is Guru a medium through with God can be worshipped.

Physical body is like Idol, Jada and the Atma-Tatva / Brahma-Tatva is chetan, omnpresent Brahman . Refer Guru Gita (73-74).


Guru Gita also says that if Guru is not mature, such Guru if preaches, then both Guru and Disciple suffer endlessly.

Guru is Shotriya and Brahma-NiShTha.

shotriya means good orator.
Brahma-niShTha means one established in Brahman.

niShThA means shraddha. So the one who has firm faith in Brahman. One is so strongly surrendered that both Jiva and Brahman are not different is called Brahma-niShTha.

IMO, worshipping Guru taking adhara of Guru Gita is a recent Tradition. Creating 108 hymms for a person who is not an established avatar is also not tradition. It is my personal opinion.

One must walk the path as taught by Guru to please him and live the life according to Gur's instructions. This is Guru Seva and Guru Bhakti. Both are met by divine grace so that seeker can be one with God. If one stays from the path, then the purpose is defeated.

Only duty and dakshina and guru seva is to be establish oneself in Brahman (from Advaita POV). I do not say rest all is useless. I am just stressing one POV.

some more verses

Note: some verses in online edition are missing so the numbers may not be exact. For convenience I have given verse Nos as given in online copy

गुरुः शिवो गुरुर्देवो गुरुर्बन्धुः शरीरिणाम् |
गुरुरात्मा गुरुर्जीवो गुरोरन्यन्न विद्यते ||

Guru is Shiva, Guru is God. Guru is the relative of all embodied beings. Guru is the Self. Guru is Jiva. There is nothing other than the Guru. (87)

मम् रूपासि देवि त्वमतस्तत्कथयामि ते |
लोकोपकारकः प्रश्नो न केनापि कृतः पुरा ||

O Devi, you are my own Self in another form. Therefore I shall narrate this to you. This question of yours will benefit the whole world. No one else has put me this question. (16)

यस्य देवे परा भक्ति, यथा देवे तथा गुरौ |
त्स्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते महात्मनः ||

Who so ever has the Supreme Love & adoration for the Lord and as for the Lord, likewise for the Guru; to him these great matters, when they told, become clear of themselves. (17)

यो गुरु स शिवः प्रोक्तो, यः शिवः स गुरुस्मृतः |
विकल्पं यस्तु कुर्वीत स नरो गुरुतल्पगः ||

He who is the Guru is Shiva Himself, so declare the scriptures, and the fact that Shiva is the Guru, is reminded to us in all the Smritis. He, who makes any distinction between the two, is guilty of the crime of uniting with his own Guru’s wife. (18)

गुरुबुध्यात्मनो नान्यत् सत्यं सत्यं वरानने |
तल्लभार्थं प्रयत्नस्तु कर्त्तवयशच मनीषिभिः ||

The Guru is not different from the conscious Self. Without doubt, this is the truth; therefore wise men should make an effort to seek knowledge of Atman from Him. (22)

गुरुणां सदसद्वापि यदुक्तं तन्न लंघयेत् |
कुर्वन्नाज्ञां दिवारात्रौ दासवन्निवसेद् गुरौ ||

One should never ignore the words of the Guru, be it just or unjust. Carrying out his behests, one should live, day and night like a servant, with the Guru. (68)

मुनिभिः पन्नगैर्वापि सुरैवा शापितो यदि |
कालमृत्युभयाद्वापि गुरुः संत्राति पार्वति ||

O Parvati, even when one is cursed by saints and gods or faced by danger from serpents, from the fear of natural death, Guru becomes the saviour. (73)

विजानन्ति महावाक्यं गुरोश्चरणसेवया |
ते वै संन्यासिनः प्रोक्ता इतरे वेषधारिणः ||

They who understand the meaning of the great sayings (Mahavakya) by doing service of the Guru are real Sanyasins. The others are mere wearers of the ochre-coloured dress. (74)

नित्यं ब्रह्म निराकारं निर्गुणं बोधयेत् परम् |
भासयन् ब्रह्मभावं च दीपो दीपान्तरं यथा ||

The Guru is one who instructs the disciple about attributeless, eternal Brahman, and there by reveals the Brahmanbhava (feeling of being Brahman) in his heart just like one lamp kindles another lamp is the Guru. (75)

गुरुप्रादतः स्वात्मन्यात्मारामनिरिक्षणात् |
समता मुक्तिमर्गेण स्वात्मज्ञानं प्रवर्तते ||

By steadiness in the path to liberation, by seeing one’s own Self in oneself, by the practice of introspection within and by the Grace of the Guru, the Knowledge of the Self dawns in the Sadhaka. (76)

स्फ़टिके स्फ़ाटिकं रूपं दर्पणे दर्पणो यथा |
तथात्मनि चिदाकारमानन्दं सोऽहमित्युत ||

Just as a crystal shines with all its beauty in a crystal, as a mirror in a mirror, so also in the Self shines the bliss of the Chidakasha “That I am” is beyond all doubts. (77)


Glory of Guru

शिवे रुष्टे गुरुस्त्राता गुरौ रुष्टे न कश्चन |
लब्ध्वा कुलगुरुं सम्यग्गुरुमेव समाश्रयेत् ||

If Shiva is angry, the Guru saves you; but if the Guru is angry, even Shiva cannot save you. Therefore, with every effort, take refuge in the Guru. (46)

गुरोर्ध्यानेनैव नित्यं देही ब्रह्ममयो भवेत् |
स्थितश्च यत्रकुत्रापि मुक्तोऽसौ नात्र संशयः ||

By constant meditation on the Guru, the individual soul becomes Brahman, wherever he lives he is free, there is no doubt in it. (85)

Here Guru should be referred as Guru Tatva i..e Brahma Tatva

ज्ञानं वैराग्यमैश्वर्यं यशः श्री समुदाहृतम् |
षड्गुणैश्वर्ययुक्तो हि भगवान् श्री गुरुः प्रिये ||

My dear Parvati, Guru possesses the six qualities of knowledge, dispassion, lordliness, fame, wealth and sweet-eloquence. (86)

गुरुः शिवो गुरुर्देवो गुरुर्बन्धुः शरीरिणाम् |
गुरुरात्मा गुरुर्जीवो गुरोरन्यन्न विद्यते ||

Guru is Shiva, Guru is God. Guru is the relative of all embodied beings. Guru is the Self. Guru is Jiva. There is nothing other than the Guru. (87)

एकाकी निस्पृहः शान्तः चिंतासूयादिवर्जितः |
बाल्यभावेन यो भाति ब्रह्मज्ञानी स उच्यते ||

Alone (one without a second); desireless peaceful, free from worry, jealousy etc. one who shines like a child (in his simplicity) is Brahmajnani (Knower of Brahman). (88)

न सुखं वेदशास्त्रेषु न सुखं मंत्रयंत्रके |
गुरोः प्रसादादन्यत्र सुखं नास्ति महीतले ||

There is no happiness in Vedas and Shastras, not even in mantras and tantras. In this world, there is no happiness except in the Guru’s Grace. (89)

चावार्कवैष्णवमते सुखं प्रभाकरे न हि |
गुरोः पादान्तिके यद्वत्सुखं वेदान्तसम्मतम् ||

There is no real happiness in the philosophy of the Charvakas (which takes the body as the object of worship and say: ”Eat, drink and be merry.”) , nor of the Vaishnavas (which preaches to worship Lord Vishnu), nor even the Prabhakaras (which in Mimansa Philosophy expounded by Kumarila Bhatta.) The happiness present in the feet of the Guru is found nowhere else. This is an admitted fact in Vedanta. (90)

न तत्सुखं सुरेन्द्रस्य न सुखं चक्रवर्तिनाम् |
यत्सुखं वीतरागस्य मुनेरेकान्तवासिनः ||

The happiness that is enjoyed by a saint free from all attachments, living in seclusion, is not enjoyed even by Indra, the Lord of the Devas, or an emperor, or mighty rulers. (91)

नित्यं ब्रह्मरसं पीत्वा तृप्तो यः परमात्मनि |
इन्द्रं च मन्यते रंकं नृपाणां तत्र का कथा ||

Having drunk Brahmarasa and satisfied in the Supreme Self, the sages of realization consider Indra also poor and then what is one to say of kings of the world? (92)

यतः परमकैवल्यं गुरुमार्गेण वै भवेत् |
गुरुभक्तिरतिः कार्या सर्वदा मोक्षकांक्षिभिः ||

The seekers after liberation should at all times develop Guru-Bhakti because by following the path shown by the Guru, one attains the highest emancipation. (93)

---


Since Guru is not different from Brahman, the worship given here is that of Guru Tatva and not Guru in physical form.

Not for controversy or to defame, but for pure understanding

वेद्शास्त्रपुराणानि चेतिहासादिकानि च |
मंत्रयंत्रविद्यादिनिमोहनोच्चाटनादिकम् ||
शैवशाक्तागमादिनि ह्यन्ये च बहवो मताः |
अपभ्रंशाः समस्तानां जीवानां भ्रांतचेतसाम् ||
जपस्तपोव्रतं तीर्थं यज्ञो दानं तथैव च |
गुरु तत्वं अविज्ञाय सर्वं व्यर्थं भवेत् प्रिये ||

The Vedas, the Shastras, Puranas, the Itihasas etc., the science of Mantras, Yantras Mohana, Uchatana etc., cults like the Shaiva, Agama, Shakta, etc., and other cults existing in the world today are merely false theories expressed in corrupted words which confuse the ignorant and deluded Jivas. Japa austerities, observances, pilgrimage sacrifice, charity - all these become a mere waste without understanding the Guru Tattva. (19, 20, 21)

तार्किकाश्छान्दसाश्चैव देवज्ञाः कर्मठः प्रिये |
लौकिकास्ते न जानन्ति गुरुतत्वं निराकुलम् ||

People who are well versed in Tarkashastra (Logic), in the vedic Chhanda Karmakandins (one well-versed in religious ceremonies, rites and rituals), people well versed in worldly sciences - none of them knows the pure Guru Tattva in its entirety. (50)

यज्ञिनोऽपि न मुक्ताः स्युः न मुक्ताः योगिनस्तथा |
तापसा अपि नो मुक्त गुरुतत्वात्पराड्मुखाः ||

Neither those who perform great sacrifices, nor yogis, nor those who practice severe austerities are liberated if they are averse to Guru Tattva. (52)

न मुक्तास्तु गन्धर्वः पितृयक्षास्तु चारणाः |
ॠष्यः सिद्धदेवाद्याः गुरुसेवापराड्मुखाः ||

Those who are averse to the service of the Guru cannot be expected to be liberated from the cycle of Samsara (birth and death), may be they are Gandharvas, Pitris, Yakshas, Rishis, Siddhas or Devas. (53)

---

A hymm on Guru first sloka in the beginning of chapter 2

|| अथ द्वितीयोऽध्यायः ||

ब्रह्मानन्दं परमसुखदं केवलं ज्ञानमूर्तिं
द्वन्द्वातीतं गगनसदृशं तत्वमस्यादिलक्ष्यम् |
एकं नित्यं विमलमचलं सर्वधीसाक्षिभूतम्
भावतीतं त्रिगुणरहितं सदगुरुं तं नमामि ||

Chapter -2

I prostrate myself before that Guru, the Bliss of Brahman, the bestower of Supreme Happiness, who is Knowledge absolute, transcending the pairs of opposites, expansive like the sky, the goal indicated by the great sayings like “Thou art That”, the one eternal, pure, unchanging, the witness of functions of the intellect, who is above all Bhavas (mental conditions) and the three Gunas (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas). (54)


There are many verses. I will end here.

Aum

Indiaspirituality

[Amrut]

more verses

कन्याभोगरतामन्दाः स्वकान्तायाः पराड्मुखाः |
अतः परं मया देवि कथितन्न मम प्रिये ||

O Devi, I am giving out these great truths to you, not for those fools who are averse to their legally wedded wives, and indulge in enjoying other women. (160)

अभक्ते वंचके धूर्ते पाखंडे नास्तिकादिषु |
मनसाऽपि न वक्तव्या गुरुगीता कदाचन ||

To the devotion less, to the cheater, to the wicked, faithless, atheists, and others of their type, this Guru Gita should never be told, nor should one think of doing so. (161)

गुरवो बहवः सन्ति शिष्यवित्तापहारकाः |
तमेकं दुर्लभं मन्ये शिष्यह्यत्तापहारकम् ||

There are ever so many Gurus in the world who rob the wealth of their disciples. But I consider that Guru a rare one among Gurus who removes the afflictions of the disciple�s heart. (162)

चातुर्यवान्विवेकी च अध्यात्मज्ञानवान् शुचिः |
मानसं निर्मलं यस्य गुरुत्वं तस्य शोभते ||

He who is the clever, the discriminative, the knower of the truths of spiritual sciences, the pure, is really the Guru. His Gurutva (state of a Guru) shines. (163)

गुरवो निर्मलाः शान्ताः साधवो मितभाषिणः |
कामक्रोधविनिर्मुक्ताः सदाचारा जितेन्द्रियाः ||

Gurus are those who are pure at heart, calm, collected, of a saintly nature, who speaks measured words, who are free from lust, greed etc. who have conquered their senses and who are established in good conduct (Sadacharas). (164)

After, 7 types of Gurus are mentioned (I have already given link in earlier post)