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Thread: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

  1. #41
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    Its simply a irrational expectation that something will work in finite horizon in future, when it did not work out for an infinite period of time when it could have occurred.
    This is where you are wrong. There was no point in the past when it could have occurred. If it could have please point to it very specifically. None of this prevents its possibility of occurrence in the future. As I said previously, people use the term "infinity" without understanding what it means leading to claims of irrationality on the part of one who DOES know what it means!

    It make no sense.
    It would make sense if you understood infinities better.

    You like all apologists is extra careful to protect absurd silly beliefs under cloak of rigors of logic and arguments.
    Did you not just admit that the arguments for an eternal universe are logically watertight? So, it is not just "cloak" but reality. No? So, my belief is NOT silly. Plus, I have also established the same from sruthi. But hey, you being you, feel free to dismiss sruthi as absurd and silly.

  2. #42
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Depending on how you define "infinite number of lives", ALL HINDU DARSHANAS believe in the above as well as the eternality of the universe. The solution to the Problem of evil in Hinduism depends crucially on this. Because it is beautiful philosophy, I am quoting it here:



    So, I have established this from sruthi also. Case closed?



    Does not follow. See above.
    No problem with eternality of the universe.

    How to solve the problem of evil in Hinduism? I am quoting from Sri Vallabhacharya.

    God is One and He became every one.
    A person can be cruel only if there is a second one. God being One cannot be cruel. You cannot be cruel to yourself.
    A person can be partial if only there were three people. God being alone cannot be partial. You cannot be partial to yourself.

    Which cruelty and partiality of God are we talking about? God sees himself every where.

    Case Closed!

    Poor logicians, they coined the illogical doctrine of infinite lives to "protect" God from evil, when God himself is the over lord of all and is also every thing. He can have no evil associated with him because there is no second entity apart from him.

    By positing the doctrine of infinite lives, what we have actually achieved is to make God look like a dummy, helpless to save souls in samsara even after infinite duration. The doctrine of the merciful omnipotent God has been finally replaced with the law of eternally sufferings souls.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  3. #43
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    Nice argument, but we can only stop with the conclusion that every jiva needs infinite time for liberation which itself is a death blow to concept of liberation for those who can think, BUT, this does not exclude the possibility of liberation in future in finite time. I think theists in the forum are trying to make you admit that liberation is still a quest with an end in sight even if they had been at it for infinite time already with no luck (presumably infinite cause and effects have confused them from -ve eternity till now, but with adi shankara and ramanuja clarifying things in 8th and 11th CE, the eternal cosmic puzzle is now solved and liberation achievable in a few or many finite life times) ... I say give the candy to the kids and engage in discussion with grown ups.
    I must admit the fact that I was one of those who did beleive that anAdi karma theory literally. After much thought, I gave up that idea. Hoping for liberation now when that has eluded you over an infinite time is a pipe dream.

    A birth is needed to acquire karmas and you take birth only if you have karmas. One has to precede the other ad infinitum for this theory to work. Much like the case of chicken and egg situation.

    But in philosophy with God as sarvakAraNakAraNaM . for the first cause you don't have to go for any theories that posit anything outside God.

    It is easy to attribute our first karma or birth to God and be done with it. Every thing in the cosmos happens by Divine will, why would you need to think that our first karmas are not due to his Will and due to beginningless unknown causes? Traditionalists have a problem with this first karma ( which they think makes God cruel, irrational or whatever).
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  4. #44
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    I must admit the fact that I was one of those who did beleive that anAdi karma theory literally. After much thought, I gave up that idea. Hoping for liberation now when that has eluded you over an infinite time is a pipe dream.

    A birth is needed to acquire karmas and you take birth only if you have karmas. One has to precede the other ad infinitum for this theory to work. Much like the case of chicken and egg situation.

    But in philosophy with God as sarvakAraNakAraNaM . for the first cause you don't have to go for any theories that posit anything outside God.

    It is easy to attribute our first karma or birth to God and be done with it. Every thing in the cosmos happens by Divine will, why would you need to think that our first karmas are not due to his Will and due to beginningless unknown causes? Traditionalists have a problem with this first karma ( which they think makes God cruel, irrational or whatever).
    Yes there are pros and cons of either assumption.

    Shaiva agamas have always put their weight on creationism and a God giving salvation in few life times. Tantra goes ahead and even pins it to 7 births only . I am assuming same is somewhat true for Vaishnava.

    But classical philosophy is not that dependent on creator God, hence support beginning-less creation.

    If one admits an eternal entity called Jiva as well as a God, then creationism is more appropriate and rational.
    Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent Of everything you think, And of everything you do, Is for yourself —And there isn't one

  5. #45
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Did you not just admit that the arguments for an eternal universe are logically watertight? So, it is not just "cloak" but reality. No? So, my belief is NOT silly. Plus, I have also established the same from sruthi. But hey, you being you, feel free to dismiss sruthi as absurd and silly.
    A long reply with more "carefully" constructed argument to show no finite upper bound to time to salvation starting ant time t in future in case of beginningless souls under a very mild additional assumption, deleted by accident ...but i willl leave it like this
    Last edited by Twilightdance; 02 May 2013 at 03:37 PM.
    Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent Of everything you think, And of everything you do, Is for yourself —And there isn't one

  6. #46
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    Do you really think that if God had a role to play in our quest for liberation, we would still be samsari-s after infinite lives? Have you never done any sadhana or good things in many of your infinite lives? What has God contributed towards your effort all these "infinite" days except keeping you in samsara?
    All good points. But if our going to moksha depends on God's abilities isn't even one birth, let alone finite innumerable births, way too much for Him who possesses infinite powers? Jiva's never ending material desire and its consequences alone has been blamed for its existence in samsara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    It is easy to attribute our first karma or birth to God and be done with it. Every thing in the cosmos happens by Divine will, why would you need to think that our first karmas are not due to his Will and due to beginningless unknown causes? Traditionalists have a problem with this first karma ( which they think makes God cruel, irrational or whatever).
    This raises several questions. If creation of the soul is attributed to God, then why does one become a worm and other a deva? On whom goes the fault of making wrong choices? Why not create souls that make the right choices always? If it is all just a random lila, then our struggle seems to be meaningless. Since the soul acquires its karma from God, both saint and sinners are living their dharma.

    I think the whole problem lies in trying to digest infinity. Infinity seems to be associated with God, soul and Prakriti. What may not be necessary is to either give them finite reasons so that our minds can understand them or say that since they are beyond finite understanding, there is a flaw.

  7. #47
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightdance View Post
    Yes there are pros and cons of either assumption.

    Shaiva agamas have always put their weight on creationism and a God giving salvation in few life times. Tantra goes ahead and even pins it to 7 births only . I am assuming same is somewhat true for Vaishnava.

    But classical philosophy is not that dependent on creator God, hence support beginning-less creation.

    If one admits an eternal entity called Jiva as well as a God, then creationism is more appropriate and rational.
    Our samsaric journey may be very long. I am only arguing for the finiteness of this journey. I don't care if we take a million or a billion lives, as long it is not infinite, which is entirely different from any finite number. Saying that we take infinite lives is like saying we really have no idea and that God has no role in our bondage or liberation.

    There is a lot of reference in the shastra to show that getting moksha is a very difficult thing. For example, consider these verses from the Gita.

    manuShyANA.n sahasreShu kashchidyatati siddhaye
    yatatAmapi siddhAnA.n kashchinmA.n vetti tattvataH

    Out of many thousands among men, one may strive for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

    bahUnA.n janmanAmante GYAnavAnmAM prapadyate .
    vAsudevaH sarvamiti sa mahAtmA sudurlabhaH

    After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing vAsudeva to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

    The general Hindu idea is that only a very few people get liberated in this life (say, one in a billion souls) and these highly evolved saints and events are very rare, as indicated by Gitacharya.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  8. #48
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by jignyAsu View Post
    All good points. But if our going to moksha depends on God's abilities isn't even one birth, let alone finite innumerable births, way too much for Him who possesses infinite powers? Jiva's never ending material desire and its consequences alone has been blamed for its existence in samsara.
    It is said that if jiva takes one step forward, then God will take ten steps towards him. So it may take some time for the jiva to take the initial steps ( which again will be as per God's will, just in case the jiva thinks he can control his destiny!).



    This raises several questions. If creation of the soul is attributed to God, then why does one become a worm and other a deva? On whom goes the fault of making wrong choices? Why not create souls that make the right choices always? If it is all just a random lila, then our struggle seems to be meaningless. Since the soul acquires its karma from God, both saint and sinners are living their dharma.

    I think the whole problem lies in trying to digest infinity. Infinity seems to be associated with God, soul and Prakriti. What may not be necessary is to either give them finite reasons so that our minds can understand them or say that since they are beyond finite understanding, there is a flaw.
    All souls may ultimately go through similar lives before getting liberation - taking birth in all kinds of wombs. What is a deva now may have been a worm in the past. Where exactly are the differences if we take into account all our lives leading to liberation? The difference between two souls are entirely determined by their cumulative sadhana of all former lives. If a particular jiva is a long way off from God, it may just mean that he is new to this samsaric journey. All major dfferences between two souls at the moment are essentially based on their "seniority" in samsara, though there can be ups and downs during the spiritual journey.

    In the ultimate scheme of things, every thing happens as per the will of God only, though it may appear to be our effort. Not even an atom moves without his Will, much less people's mind and hearts. If you are a saint, God has blessed you to be. A sinner is a sinner again due to the divine will. This is not my view, this is the view of Shastra and clearly stated as such in kaushitaki brahmana upanishad - vide 3.8.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  9. #49
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    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    If a particular jiva is a long way off from God, it may just mean that he is new to this samsaric journey. All major dfferences between two souls at the moment are essentially based on their "seniority" in samsara, though there can be ups and downs during the spiritual journey.
    Does that mean that jiva are created equally in the lowest order possible in the beginning? Such creations of souls, as per my understanding is absent in the scriptures let alone the first karma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    In the ultimate scheme of things, every thing happens as per the will of God only, though it may appear to be our effort. Not even an atom moves without his Will, much less people's mind and hearts. If you are a saint, God has blessed you to be. A sinner is a sinner again due to the divine will. This is not my view, this is the view of Shastra and clearly stated as such in kaushitaki brahmana upanishad - vide 3.8.
    I do agree that everything is subject to the divine will and He makes the saint and sinner as He faciliates all these. However the ultimate reason for the difference should lie on the individual's karma. In Brahma Sutras there is a discussion on this that if an individual's state is not His responsibility, then the injunctions in the shAstrAs are a waste.

    If I create a robot and that creates a havoc in the society ultimately, I am to be blamed for my inability or my intention. Similarly if the creation of the soul and the karma is on the divine, then He cannot escape the blame. And the shAstrAs never hold Him culpable for any evil.

  10. #50

    Re: Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Arguments by assertion, I see. When you do have a deductive argument, I'd be more interested.
    Again, it has already been offered. In your own words, go back and read it again, till you understand it.
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