Start of the 'Atma'/Soul

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

I just don't know what to say anymore...

I'm not done with you.
I'll shoot within few days, be patient.

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste philosoraptor, Omkara and others

Additional reasons why the idea of bondage of the jiva soul in beginningless saṃsāra is wrong:

1st reason:

Lord Kṛṣṇa declares in Bhagavad-gītā 14.4 sarva-yoniṣu ... ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "I am the father of all."
See also Bhagavad-gītā 9.17:

pitāham asya jagato
mātā dhātā pitāmahaḥ

"I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire (grandfather)."

Compare this with the statement of Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 2.5 where it says that we are amṛtasya putrā or the "sons of immortality".
What would we expect from a father, mother and grandfather?

Philosoraptor are you a father? Do you have children?
If you do, then I want to ask you something:
Where do you keep your kids? Do you keep them locked up somewhere in the basement or in some kind of dungeon?
Do you keep them locked up in a dungeon in miserable conditions for living, in the darkness, in the cold, etc. Let us assume that you do keep them locked up in a dungeon in miserable conditions for no reason. Then, while holding them captive so you hope that one day they will strive towards liberation, and when they do, you will release them and ask them to join you on the 1st floor.

Should we expect that our father, the Lord, is keeping the souls imprisoned in this material world in a miserable bondage of beginningless saṃsāra for no reason?
I don't think so. There is no reason for this nonsense.
Hence my conclusion: idea of bondage of the jiva soul in beginningless saṃsāra is wrong!


2nd reason:

From the Vedic literature we can see that there is a specific purpose of why the living being exists. What is the purpose of the existence of the soul?
Vedic literature say that there is sanatana dharma or "eternal nature" of the soul, or "eternal occupational duties" of the soul. This sanatana dharma of the soul is that the soul is eternal servant of the Lord. That is the purpose of the existence of the soul.
Now, if this is so then why would the Lord keep the souls imprisoned in a miserable bondage of beginningless saṃsāra and thus preventing the souls to fulfill that purpose?
By doing so the Lord, obviously, is preventing the souls to fulfill the purpose of their existence, ie eternal servitorship of the Lord.
Is there any reason to prevent it?
Instead of holding the souls in bondage of beginningless saṃsāra, the Lord could immediately enable the souls to fulfill this purpose!
If eternal servitorship of the Lord is the very purpose of the existence of the soul, he should immediately be able to do so.
Is there any reason to postpone it, and to fulfill it after innumerable lifetimes spent in beginningless saṃsāra?
I don't think so. Here again, there is no reason for this nonsense.
Hence my conclusion: idea of bondage of the jiva soul in beginningless saṃsāra is complete nonsense!

Now, since beginningless saṃsāra is complete nonsense it must be that saṃsāra has a beginning.
When and why bondage of saṃsāra begins?
Obviously it begins when the soul decides to abandon the Lord.
Obviously, this presupposes that the soul lived together with the Lord in servitorship of the Lord.
This is explained in Bhāgavatam 11.2.37 (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/37/en) :

"When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called māyā."

This verse clearly explains what is the reason for bondage of the soul!

This is also said in Bhāgavatam 6.16.56-57 (http://vedabase.net/sb/6/16/57/en) :

taj jñānaḿ brahma tat param

yad etad vismṛtaḿ puḿso
mad-bhāvaḿ bhinnam ātmanaḥ
tataḥ saḿsāra etasya
dehād deho mṛter mṛtiḥ

"When a living entity, thinking himself different from Me, forgets his spiritual identity of qualitative oneness with Me in eternity, knowledge and bliss, his material, conditional life begins. In other words, instead of identifying his interest with Mine, he becomes interested in his bodily expansions like his wife, children and material possessions. In this way, by the influence of his actions, one body comes from another, and after one death, another death takes place."

In this verse expression tataḥ saḿsāra means "from then on, from that time on or after that time saḿsāra follows".

If I am in samsAra, but am a devotee of Vishnu, and then I later forget my relationship with Vishnu, being restored to that previous condition is certainly being "brought back," yet it does not imply being "brought back" to the liberated state.

If we try in this way to understand this verse of Bhāgavatam 11.2.37, philosoraptor would like to understand it, we would have no answer to the question why the Lord is keeping the soul in bondage of saṃsāra.

Having karma implies being in samsAra. You can't have one without the other.

This is philosoraptor's understanding of the word "karma".
In my previous post #86 my response to this objection was:

When the soul is in the company of the Lord he performs activities in relationship with the Lord. These activities are called "karma".
This "karma" has nothing to do with bondage. There is no "Having karma you have to enjoy and suffer" there and so there is no saṃsāra.

Now I will give additional reasons why the word "karma" is to be understood literally as "activity, work" and not as "karma you have to enjoy and suffer in bondage".
Let's see what is the use of the word "karma" in Bhagavad-gītā 3.9 (http://vedabase.net/bg/3/9/en) :

yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra
loko 'yaḿ karma-bandhanaḥ
tad-arthaḿ karma kaunteya
mukta-sańgaḥ samācara

"Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage."

Here we have a clear example of the use of the word "karma" in the sense that has nothing to do with bondage. If we perform work (karma) for the satisfaction of the Lord (as a sacrifice for Lord Viṣṇu), we will always remain free from bondage.

Similar use of the word "karma" in the sense that has nothing to do with bondage we can see in Bhagavad-gītā 4.9 (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/9/en) where the Lord says:

janma karma ca me divyam

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities (karma)"

Thus, even the activities of the Lord can be called "karma". Needless to say that the activities of the Lord will not take Him into bondage.

regards

[jignyAsu]

Perhaps nowhere in the scriptures there is a statement "we forgot that we were once in Vaikuntha", but there is a story about Jaya and Vijaya in Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. They were the guardians of the gate in Vaikuntha. They descended into the material world to forget the Lord and became demons. This story about Jaya and Vijaya is a proof that every jiva soul can forget his relationship with the Lord and come down to this material world and became a demon!

Pranam,

I came across this in the other thread - http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11868&page=9
and thought that I can share Sri Vaishnava thoughts on this in this thread.

The Vaikuntha from where Jaya, Vijaya fell were from kArya Vaikuntha that is in each Brahmandam. This is because many Jivatmas including devas, rishis etc freely go in and out of the world. This is not possible in the world of moksha - main vaikuntham - where one who goes never comes back.

This is very much inside samsara. This Jaya Vijaya in the Karya Vaikuntha could be a post occupied by various bound jivatmas or avataras cursed just like Sri Krishna was cursed.