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Thread: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

  1. #101
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    In Ramcharitra manas in the utar khand section Kak Bhusandi is narrating Kali yuga of previous age to Garuda, it paints a horrific picture but it also has it merit as Tulasidas says off all the impurities and hypocrisy of Kali yuga there is one redeeming Guna by which final emancipation is possible very easily, by chanting the Rams name and guna.
    Namaskaram Ganeshprasadji.

    I have heard the same from many gurus, including my own. In such an age to save oneself, the best course is resort to the Holy Name.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by TrikonaBindu; 29 May 2013 at 10:31 AM.

    Mahadeva Smaranam OM namah shivaya
    Mrtyunjayaya rudraya neelakanthaya shambhave
    Amrteshaya sarvaya mahadevaya te namah

  2. #102
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste Philosoraptor

    Excuse me, do not misquote me out of context in your trolling for attacks on Hindu members of the forum.

    The paragraph that has those words in my post are below, and has nothing to do with your claim of condescending remarks about brahmins who "memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts," - your mode of operation is in itself condensending to millions of Hindus who do not, nor will be forced to, follow your Sampradaya or what you claim is representing it in your demeanor and frankly over reach.

    My opinion, and observation, that there are brahmins who can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to further Dharma in the duty of Hindu glory, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formula but also memorize all the sacred text, capable of both abilities and apply them in the seva to fellow Hindus and the Divine duty, has nothing to do with condescending anything.

    Do not use me and misquote me as part of your agenda to malign other Hindus who are taught other than you.

    Today I think of Sri Vishwakarma, the eminent architect, engineer and artisan of the Divine. Jai Tulsidas.

    Om Namah Sivaya

    ------------------------------
    I am noticing sometimes a criticism of a brahmin who, for example, is an IT genius, or electrical or space engineer for example, as if they have abandoned pujari work in the temple and their duty to be a priest of Hinduism, who have abandoned the need to memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts of their respective Sampradaya, and who might be criticized for making, earning and creating millions of dollars of creative production.

    A brahmin can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to help make such a statement on behalf of Hindu glory to come true, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formulas and interactions of chemistry and time dimension, but also memorize all the sacred texts, and absolutely use practical application of such skill and innovation to the duty of seva to Devatas, puja, the Hindu community, raise lots of money in the process to fund the way of Hinduism, and fulfill the duty of what we see as a brahmin to society and as an advisor to men.

  3. #103

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Excuse me, do not misquote me out of context in your trolling for attacks on Hindu members of the forum.
    There is no need. You provided the context quite amply. You've made your views on Manu-smRiti and hereditary caste system clear, as well as your view that those who disagree with you on these issues are "racist" or "caste-centric."

    My opinion, and observation, that there are brahmins who can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to further Dharma in the duty of Hindu glory, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formula but also memorize all the sacred text, capable of both abilities and apply them in the seva to fellow Hindus and the Divine duty,
    And I never claimed otherwise. As usual, you are just knocking down strawmen. It happens when you read only what you want to see and not what is actually there.

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #104
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste Philosoraptor

    Again, Manu Smriti? It says to cut the tongue out of a "shudra" if he "insults" a brahmin, to take an iron nail, ten fingers, which shouldl be thrust red hot into his mouth. I really don't care about what it says, in this or that version of the many addendums to such "Law Book(s)" of which might contain some actual sacred verses in it but it has interpolations and is a "law manual" (funny, the word Manu is in manual) to a particular time and not sacred, there are actual sacred texts I can enjoy learning from so I don't need the "Laws of Manu" (funny).

    But this reminds me to step back into the original context of this thread on the UK law, which I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  5. #105
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States
    Namaskaram to all.

    Caste discrimination and harassment was not explicitly covered in British anti-discrimination law. It was believed at first that such legislation was unnecessary. Then they did the research.... https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...on-summary.pdf

    This legislation sets a precedent, sensitizing other nations and also the United Nations. If incidents of caste-based harassment accumulate, the time may come in other nations, including the United States, when research is undertaken to estimate the impact of caste discrimination on work, education, and the supply of goods and services.

    Pranam.

    Mahadeva Smaranam OM namah shivaya
    Mrtyunjayaya rudraya neelakanthaya shambhave
    Amrteshaya sarvaya mahadevaya te namah

  6. #106

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Again, Manu Smriti? It says to cut the tongue out of a "shudra" if he "insults" a brahmin, to take an iron nail, ten fingers, which shouldl be thrust red hot into his mouth. I really don't care about what it says, in this or that version of the many addendums to such "Law Book(s)" of which might contain some actual sacred verses in it but it has interpolations and is a "law manual" (funny, the word Manu is in manual) to a particular time and not sacred, there are actual sacred texts I can enjoy learning from so I don't need the "Laws of Manu" (funny).
    Well, there you go again with the condescension and strawman attacks.

    First of all, it is by no means clear that the draconian punishments mentioned in Manu are part of the original version of the same. Manu is mentioned or alluded to in several purANas, none of which describe any events of "low-caste" people being punished in such a manner. If the text is interpolated, this is no reflection on Manu or its original authority. It just indicates that its authority is a dependent one. I believe I made this quite clear, and I'm not sure why you are continuing to behave as if defending its (dependent) authenticity implies endorsing draconian punishment. I guess that's what you do when you just feel the need to argue and feel self-righteous.

    Like it or not, and feel free as usual to ignore what I am about to tell you here, but Manu-smriti is referenced several times in the Ramayana of Valmiki as a standard authority on determining right conduct. We cannot on one hand, call ourselves honest people, and then on the other hand, discount Manu's role in formulating the culture of dharma when the ideal purusha Himself repeatedly quoted it to make His determinations of what is and is not right. Again, please note here, in case it is still not clear to you, that Manu was quoted in the Ramayana on matters relating to duties of kings, husbands, wives, etc, and never in regards to draconian punishments. If Manu really wants people to drive nails into the tongues of shudras, then why does Rama quote him on dharma? Would Rama accept someone as an authority on some matters of dharma when that same authority endorses torturing people elsewhere? Does that make sense to you? Really? Think about it....

    But this reminds me to step back into the original context of this thread on the UK law, which I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States.

    Om Namah Sivaya
    This is an asinine response. You are still not grasping the point, and are going off onto hysterical tangents that have nothing to do with anything. If I quote Manu to say that husbands should keep their wives happy, and that yagnas bear no fruit in those households in which women are mistreated, are you going to call Hindu rights organizations and tattle on me for it? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  7. #107

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Omkara View Post
    What does this have to do with the right to women to learn the vedas and wear the sacred thread? Traditionally they are allowed to do neither of these things. Then why do we have women as seers for various vedic verses? And why do we have examples of women like Gargi and Maitreyi in the upanishads who were well versed in vedic wisdom? Other acharyas have not addressed this issue but Sri Madhvacharya has in his Brahma Sutra Bhashya. He says that upanayanam is the pre requisite for vedic learning. While upanayanam is not allowed for women, the marriage ceremony is an equivalent ceremony and married women can learn the shruti from their husbands taking their husbands as gurus.
    Traditionally who is anyoen to deny women to do these, why do we have powerfule female forms of God, tell Kali ma she cannot do, tell Shakti she cannot do, tell Durga mata she cannot do.
    Examples are there for clear gender equality enshrined in Hindu texts, Bravo Agniveer.
    Now:
    http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_070503.htm
    The Vedic period was glorified by the tradition. Many rishis were women. Indeed several of them authored many of the slokas in the Vedas. For instance in the Rigveda there is a list of women rishis. Some of these names are: Ghoshsha, Godha, Vishwawra, Apala, Upanishad, Brahmjaya, Aditi, Indrani, Sarma, Romsha, Urvashi, Lopamudra, Yami, Shashwati, Sri, Laksha and many others. In the Vedic period women were free to enter into brahmacharya just as men and become sannyasin

  8. #108

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    No, that is merely your perception of caste. Caste as described in shruti and smRiti does not involve "condemning" anyone.
    Too right it does not, otherwise no Moksha, and contradicting humane verses in Hindu texts.
    B.G 5.18 Lord Krishna advises to view different people with equal eye.

    A woman and man produce another human being, this human being is an individual, he/she will through their personal development come to know what profession they so choose, each profession has dignity of labour, and worthy of respect, none higher none lower.
    No one can tell another individual what to be just because of what family they come from, this is discrimination and such individuals will not gain Moksha.

  9. #109

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Manu has been used by anti hindu individuals to malign the hindu faith. There are questions over whether parts of Manu have been corrupted, and any verse not in line with Humane verses in Vedas are rejected, our conduct is advised to be Dharma, not adharma.

    Here in UK, the law is very good, just look at Abu qatada, still he has not been deported as law stands firm.
    Caste bill though passed, will be in fairness and proof required.
    We want so called 'dalits' people to come together with us, as we see no differences between us, as God resides in hearts of all beings, and dignity of labour to all functions.

  10. #110

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Dogra, do you feel it is important to provide evidence to back up your views, or should we just assume that anything you read on a website is correct, based solely on the fact that it has your seal of approval?

    Please let us know. Because so far as I can see from our "discussions" with you, it appears that Vedas, Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Dharma-shasras, Puranas, and Itihasas are not the authority on Hinduism. Rather, the authority on Hinduism is whatever dogra posts, based on what he read from select websites. Anything that contradicts dogra can be ignored, even when it comes from the aforementioned scriptures.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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