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Thread: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

  1. #111

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Also, dogra, is it fair to assume that you are probably no more than 14 or 15 years old? Because that would explain a lot...
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  2. #112
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by dogra View Post
    Traditionally who is anyoen to deny women to do these, why do we have powerfule female forms of God, tell Kali ma she cannot do, tell Shakti she cannot do, tell Durga mata she cannot do.
    Examples are there for clear gender equality enshrined in Hindu texts, Bravo
    Atleast as a starting point let us not equate differentiating to crusading. These kinds of judgements have been taught to us by outsiders.

    Let those who refuse to see differences in gender or varna by birth atleast not think of those who believe in this as being evil, for a start. After all to none has Moksha and spiritual progress been denied. None is excluded from being a spiritual teacher nor is this varna of anyone claimed to be permanent. If one believes in rebirth and karma, then there is a possibility of classification by birth.

    Our Rishis have given us a unequal prescription in order to acheive an equal destination. In our society, a father prescribes different rules to his son and daughter...but he wants them both to be happy. Let this not be constituted as being women suppression.

    That B.G 5.18 verse talks about viewing not only different people with equal eye but also animals like elephant, cow etc. Surely this can't mean putting a sacred thread on a cow or a cat (not yet). This only means that ultimately we are the same ..but the differences is due to our karma and temporary.

    Those people who are suggesting us to change the traditions, can they guarantee us if a sacred thread will continue to remain "sacred"? Do they know if the Vedic rituals will continue to work? Have they acheived a stable society? Is purity of thoughts being upheld?

    In so many temples the Male deity is given a sacred thread and not the female deity. This surely does not mean that the Female deity is looked down upon. In fact there have been instances where the male deity has been looked down upon.

  3. #113

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by jignyAsu View Post
    Atleast as a starting point let us not equate differentiating to crusading. These kinds of judgements have been taught to us by outsiders.

    Let those who refuse to see differences in gender or varna by birth atleast not think of those who believe in this as being evil, for a start. After all to none has Moksha and spiritual progress been denied. None is excluded from being a spiritual teacher nor is this varna of anyone claimed to be permanent. If one believes in rebirth and karma, then there is a possibility of classification by birth.

    Our Rishis have given us a unequal prescription in order to acheive an equal destination. In our society, a father prescribes different rules to his son and daughter...but he wants them both to be happy. Let this not be constituted as being women suppression.

    That B.G 5.18 verse talks about viewing not only different people with equal eye but also animals like elephant, cow etc. Surely this can't mean putting a sacred thread on a cow or a cat (not yet). This only means that ultimately we are the same ..but the differences is due to our karma and temporary.

    Those people who are suggesting us to change the traditions, can they guarantee us if a sacred thread will continue to remain "sacred"? Do they know if the Vedic rituals will continue to work? Have they acheived a stable society? Is purity of thoughts being upheld?

    In so many temples the Male deity is given a sacred thread and not the female deity. This surely does not mean that the Female deity is looked down upon. In fact there have been instances where the male deity has been looked down upon.
    Pranams, jignyasu.

    There is a fatal flaw in the words you write above: they make sense.

    This is why the revisionist crowd has no use for them.

    And yes, when you extend dogra's arguments to their logical conclusion, it leads to the question, "Is it ok to bestow sacred thread on a cow?" If you believe what dogra says, then it should indeed be ok. After all, the humble sage sees with equal vision the brahmin, the candala, the cow, etc. While we're on that subject, why do men prefer to marry women? Remember: we have to see everyone with equal vision. There should be no problem with men marrying men and women marrying women. Or even humans marrying animals. We're all *equal* remember? Gita 5.19 says so!

    Intelligent people recognize that untenable conclusions extrapolated from bad arguments imply that the arguments themselves are flawed.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  4. #114
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    This is why the revisionist crowd has no use for them.
    These are but our own....including the Hindus in Agniveer. I am afraid, though of the increasing influence of western opinions of right or wrong on us. I think you too are bothered about the same thing.

    For e.g. people are already looking upon child beating as a child abuse. Few generations down the line, it will be impossible to convince anyone about the difference. Not that I think beating should continue but when people start to look upon it as an evil then some (not all) of our society practices comes into question. How will Mother Yashoda running behind the child Krishna with a stick be looked upon a few generations from now? There will be perhaps be some group then trying to redefine stick as being symbolic etc. All this is unnecessary as the bonding of children and parents is much more in our society than anywhere else.

    I think that there is a need for Hindus, especially those born in western countries, to understand that discrimination in our Hindu society based on Varna, gender etc. is not evil as they are being projected these days. They may or may not accept this discrimination.

  5. #115

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Pranams,

    Yes, they are "our own" people, sadly. Despite their ignorance and Westernized conditioning, what they say will reflect on all of us, and that is why we should be concerned.

    I've see this happen many, many, many times before, where some angry-but-uneducated Hindus will start a commotion, dogra style, with Westerners who are making unflattering remarks about Hinduism (sometimes real, sometimes imagined), and end up making things worse. Especially when they come face-to-face with academics, as they did in the California school textbook debate (which should have been an easy win for Hinduism on the grounds of discrimination), they have a tendency to spew self-defeating, revisionist propaganda which ends up working against us when academics call it out for what it is. This has resulted in multiple failures to revise the Hinduism curriculum according to the same scholarly standards reserved for the treatment of other religions. Even if we look solely at those who self-identify as Hindus, the attitudes of these Western diaspora towards their own traditions is pathetic. This is even among those who claim they are "proud" of their "Hinduism." They almost all regard caste as an evil thing and criticize it with wild abandon, not realizing that the preservation of our scriptures, and indeed, of much of our culture, is the legacy of hereditary brahmins. They even reject any scripture which talks of caste, so in their view you don't have to give much regard for any purana. Some of these people are quite fascinated with Krishna's "rasa-lila" and treat it as endorsing some kind of "progressive" attitude towards sex. When I politely explained based on the bhAgavatam to to one group of such people that the relations between the gopis and Krishna were on a spiritual platform and not to be confused with carnal lust, they became quite hostile to me. In other words, they were ok with believing that a beloved deity of Hinduism was a bigamist. On the other extreme are the Victorian-inspired sensibilities of the Agniveer.com folks, who claim that Krishna's rasa-lila and polygamy never happened. I guess we can't have that sort of thing because modern Christianity only allows you to have one spouse, and what would they say if they found about Sri Krishna? Not surprisingly, while these "hindus" have nothing but scornful remarks about people who believe in caste system (i.e. Ramanuja, Madhva, Shankara), they really think the world of Jesus and Mohammed and can't tolerate any Hindu criticizing them. Well, some of these diaspora will criticize the prophets, because in their mind having one supreme God is a bad thing and these prophets preached that. Good thing we don't have any of that Supreme God stuff in Hinduism! (sarcasm) Speaking of monotheism, I am reminded of a time when a Christian fundamentalist publicly criticized Hinduism because "You have so many gods, but not one to forgive you your sins." Sounds stupid, right? Here's what passed for an answer from the lay Hindu community, as published in the Himalayan Academy's then circulating newspaper editorial: "We Hindus are not lacking in gods, we have 33 million gods to chose from."

    Sometimes I feel I can't roll my eyes anymore for fear that my extraocular muscles will become paralyzed. These and other incidents have shown me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Hindus can be their own worst enemies.

    This is why I have tried time and time again to try to get people to think more deeply about what they say, and why they believe what they believe. The cause of Hinduism would be helped best if some of these self-identified Hindutva would spend more time reading their scriptures, instead of Westernizing them.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by jignyAsu View Post
    I think that there is a need for Hindus, especially those born in western countries, to understand that discrimination in our Hindu society based on Varna, gender etc. is not evil as they are being projected these days. They may or may not accept this discrimination.
    I have a suggestion. Could you request any "shudra" friends of yours to come post on HDF and let them speak about the benefits of varna discrimination and how they are happy with it? This is, of course, assuming they have not already given up on temple worship and found their way to the nearest church or mosque.

    The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?

  7. #117
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste,

    Perhaps it is time to let go of this topic and find something else to milk?
    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?
    Does the talk of racism in South Africa in the forum come from personal experience, or is it generic comments based on what one reads in the paper and is enhanced by one's imagination? I was there about a year ago and although I don't pretend to be an expert on their country, I do try to cajole the natives of the lands I visit, to share some of their personal feelings. With that as the background, we could discuss racism in SA in a separate thread, if someone so desires. Getting steamed up about everything unjust that happens in the world, without translating that into some action with tangible results is just blowing hot air.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 31 May 2013 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste

      There was a crabby old guy who was the grandfather of a little girl, the girl was the sister of one of the boys who had gone on a horseback riding trip in the countryside sponsred by a bank for employees of the bank and their families.

      Apparently the old guy had given the little girl a new blue sweater.  

    At the picnic as some were riding horses he was loud after drinking a couple of beers, carrying on how "children should be seen and not heard", and "a good swat will put the fear of God in them" and things like that.  

    Then he sees the little girl picking up horse manure (poop) and she had wiped her hands on her blue sweater.  

    Infuriated, seeing her from behind doing this, that she would do such a thing to the new sweater he bought her, he rolls up a "Field and Stream" magazine he was reading into a baton, comes up from behind the little girl and then swats her hard (SMACK!) on her behind with the rolled up magazine.    

    The smack was loud, everyone turned to look, and even louder was the wailing and crying of the little girl for her mommy as she turned around in horror.  

    When she turned around, that was when the crabby old guy saw it was not his grand-daughter.  

    That's when a big strong man comes up to the crabby old man who now realizes his mistake, grabs the old guy by the arm half lifting him off the ground shouting, "What the (blank) do you think you are doing you old (blank), I'm going to bust you bottom" and proceeds to grab the magazine from the old guy's trembling hands and swats the old guy on his behind hard and right off his feet.  

    The police come, and the old guy is taken in for assaulting a minor.  The actual father of the little girl, the girl still crying in the arms of her mother, was also taken in and shortly released without charges.  

    The old guy however was charged with assaulting a minor.  

    What an idiot.  

    Om Namah Shivaya    

  9. #119
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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste Philosoraptor

    So let me understand, now you are attacking the Himalayan Academy? As well as all Hindus who have left India. As well as most Hindus who live in India who belong to a huge and diverse family of Hinduism. On and on you go, with the endless attacks on Hindus, I am beginning to think there is more in common with Islam propagandists and your demeanor than Hinduism. You have so many Hindus that you see as your enemy, you must be a very small minority indeed.

    As far as laws regarding discrimination, crimes and violence against “shudras” and others who are not “your caste” (what caste are you exactly, by the way?), they are much more strict in India than “the West” (actually, the term West is becoming so boring – I have no idea, but perhaps you yourself live in the “West”, and exactly how can you even be alive for another minute being in the “West” considering?) - and soon to be even more strict with new legislation by the people and government of India. But you feel so strong about “punishing shudras”, words mean nothing, would you ever act on them? What do you think would happen if you did? What do you think would happen if you actually tried to apply “punishment” you see fit to my daughter for example? We hear a lot of talk about concern regarding government telling others how to raise or punish their children – but some of these same people want to be the very government by caste and in law to punish children who do not belong to them, and would do so in a draconian manner if given the power.

    Everyone loves their children. And that is why, the tone which you have is concerning to everyone who has children.

    By the way, it is my observation in India, that the preservation of Hinduism in the hearts of the people in the face of one assault after another is the women of countless villages all over India, in every home, and not some flamboyant exaggeration that it is the exclusive “legacy of hereditary Brahmins”.

    I think this thread has already had enough of the edge to it. Put the tone to rest, please.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  10. #120

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Philo here we go again with your pathetic personal attacks, it is really quite lame.
    Have provided scriptures sources, you disapprove, now if you are a very learned person and an authority then let us know your qualifications.
    As stated Alliance of Hindu organisations have learned scriptural people and we do not believe in birth based caste as per hindu scriptures, and have stated my case.
    Now if u continue pathetic personal attacks I have right of defence and be sure will defend myself.
    If you do not like the views I have expressed then so be it, you are free to believe in your interpretation and I mine, which I have stated with scriptural back up.
    Now again can you provide clear scriptural injunction that states birth based caste, so that person borm to cleaner will also be a cleaner show this clear verse, for if there was birth based then it would be clearly stated.
    Last edited by dogra; 31 May 2013 at 04:50 AM.

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