'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

[wundermonk]

Irrelevant. Even human/animal are adjuncts to the soul. In that case, will you indulge in bestiality? Try to engage in conversation with animals? Make a dog wear a sacred thread?

Also, Shikhandin was born as a woman called Shikhandini. He/she only had the genitals of a male. So his gender status WAS suspect. Besides, the fact that women are not allowed in warfare and soldiers are not allowed to kill women was never in dispute. What was in dispute was the gender status of Shikhandin. Both the Pandavas and Kauravas agreed that women are not allowed in warfare.

Also, Rama refused to kill Tataka for this very reason. What do you have to say about that?

All I have to say about this is that Indian Hindu soldiers fighting to keep Kashmir a part of India would be mercilessly mocked at on HDF if he kills a Muslim female suicide bomber. He would be mocked at by people who themselves pick and choose from scripture and refuse to identify themselves as traditional Hindus or what set of scriptural injunctions in entirety they themselves follow in their lives.

As I have mentioned before, this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

Good job guys!

[dogra]

Why what? what exactly is your point? Kali thirst for Blood are you suggesting women do the same?

Again Kali is in female form, so why female, why not leave Kali at home, why bother showing females can be destroyer.

You are missing the point, no one denying they are human and if they so wish they can do what they like but are they equal to box a male or compete in the same game? you are talking off equality where else i am pointing out the differences we are all made different in ability and skill. you don't see a cow till the farm but we use the bull because they are strong, that is our tradition off course you can use a cow if you so choose but that would be deemed as Go Paap in our Hindu dharma.

Oh dear, already stated some are faster than others, some cleverer than others, some stronger than others, hope made this clear, we are not equal in these characteristics, hence why you have different weight divisions in boxing for example. This is not the equality I am talking of, u misunderstand, agree that we are all made differently in terms of ability and skill, though a person can improve their skill if training or education occurs, but may not reach someone who has better inherent natures in the particular area.

Oh really so my guna and karma is a product of my parents, nothing to do with individual ? Who says anything about condemning anyone, beside neither being a cleaner or a doctor changes anyone's varna.

If you are looking for scripture injection of changing varna there are two specific sloka in Bhagvat Gita if I can recall they are in chapter three and eighteen which says, from memory, it is better to engage in ones dharma even if Imperfectly than to perform someone else occupation perfectly. To follow another's path is deemed dangerous

Ok, maybe I did not state in full, karma and guna of individual will in reincarnation come forth, and yes Varna may not change, but individual can choose to be of whatever profession they decide if they educate themselves.

Yes Lord Krishna does advise that, he does not state that u must be of same profession as parents, hence no scriptural injunction. If a person chooses to follow a path not of their nature then that is their choice, and we cannot condemn, though advise by Lord Krishna is not to do so, and quite agree.

Please try to understand spiritually, not just human but all sentient being are equal. You must understand everyone is born with different aptitude attained through different vasnas and karmas and thus there is unequal status it can not be otherwise.
Off course anyone can marry anyone they choose and they do but bare in mind, it is not discriminatory when a farmer choose the best seed to get best crop or a race owner uses the best pedigree horse to produce another race horse. If a horse chose through the matter of heart an ass to mate with that would give a tatoo which would still race but don't expect it to win the race!

Ok as stated there is spiritual equality, of course there will be different abilities, that is not the point here, point is to not discriminate against anyone regardless of birth, to not prevent anyone being of a profession they so choose.

[dogra]

Nobody 'makes' gods. That is simply another Neo- Hindu delusion. There is no significance to the existence of goddesses other than the fact that devas too need wives.

Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

[Omkara]

Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

Would you bother responding to what I said rather than going on saying the same thing like a broken record?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam JignyAsu

Pranams. Yes I agree whole heartedly with this.

My worry is this. If every instance of inequality is projected as being a crusade, our future Hindu generations will be scared of picking up our Puranas. Which one of us who have read the Puranas sincerely can claim that they are bereft of any discrimination (material) whatseover?

Even if we turn a blind eye to all of this, the atheists and anti hindus will read it out loud to our children few generations down the line. Going around with notion that any form of discrimination is evil, they will have no defense and will lose faith.

I am not advocating for reestablishing our Puranic society in any way. But atleast let us faciliate for the future generations to be able to read our Puranas with ease and continue on with their spirituality. Let not woman suppression be hurled on the ancient men who would lower their bow and voice seeing a woman.

Your worry is not unfounded nor those who argue against varna( even though misguided) are not wrong to raise their voice, after all we all Hindus have respect for our Dharma in our own way.
There is different world view out there, there is no place for crusade rightly so just as Lord Krishna having instructed Arjun he leaves it for him to make his choice.

Seems Brits are at it again, divide and rule, why bring caste into an equality law what is their purpose, is there a caste discrimination in UK ?

You talk about future generation well let me ask you what kind of respect do we hold for our ancestors, did they give in to equality did they give up their choice of Varna?
No instead they chose to die, there were piles of sacred thread they prefer to die then to convert. Both this so called religion would have given us the opportunity to Be equal in their myopic view, yet they chose otherwise why?
Because they knew, Vivek (discrimination ) in the Puranas and ithihas are source of harmony in this unequal world, there is no democracy on earth that is on par with our dharma and shastra.

In the name of equality are we going to question the ethics of Bhismapita not wanting to kill a woman did he not know Maa Kali is a woman? Or do we see in our tradition,the morality of man, not wanting to fight a woman!

Shree Krishna also address your worry he says;

The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Again Kali is in female form, so why female, why not leave Kali at home, why bother showing females can be destroyer.
.

If you want to know why Kali took that ferocious form then you will have to read chandi path in markendeya puran.

As to why in our tradition women did not take arms which is ample evident in Mahabharata war, you will have to understand the moral principle involved in it, also she is tender loving person only a woman can give birth and bring up a family in an ideal situation, she is not cut out for warfare, different in this day and age though.

If you can understand the principle behind cow and the bull and their respective place in our tradition you might understand why our society is geared up the way it was.

Ok, maybe I did not state in full, karma and guna of individual will in reincarnation come forth, and yes Varna may not change, but individual can choose to be of whatever profession they decide if they educate themselves.

Good at last we agree on something, as to what vocation one choose in pursuit of material gain, which is the main goal in this age but the goal of Varnashram is and was a different proposition.

Yes Lord Krishna does advise that, he does not state that u must be of same profession as parents, hence no scriptural injunction. If a person chooses to follow a path not of their nature then that is their choice, and we cannot condemn, though advise by Lord Krishna is not to do so, and quite agree.

Though I have no desire or authority to condemn anyone but we should always remain mindful of what he says although I must accept not everyone reads Bhagvat Gita .

Now lets consider what he does say after saying he is the author of Varnashram bg4.13 he says thus in 4.15;

evam jnatva krtam karma
purvair api mumuksubhih
kuru karmaiva tasmat tvam
purvaih purvataram krtam

tasmat--therefore; tvam--you; purvaih--by the predecessors; purva-taram--ancient predecessors; krtam--as performed.

I think that makes pretty much clear indication we are to follow in the footstep of our forefathers. I don't need Scripture to tell me that I am sure if we have faith in our lineage and respect what they did, we would follow in their footsteps.

Ok as stated there is spiritual equality, of course there will be different abilities, that is not the point here, point is to not discriminate against anyone regardless of birth, to not prevent anyone being of a profession they so choose.

If you understand Vivek you will know our scripture do not discriminate.

Jai Shree Krishna

[philosoraptor]

Wundermonk, will you care to answer my question about vegetarianism?

If you have not noticed yet, we already HAVE Brahmins crossing oceans and continuing to claim they represent "traditional" Hinduism despite injunctions against it! Hinduism has already changed since the times of Manu.

You're not listening. The status of Manu is not in dispute as far as traditional scholars or shAstra is concerned. It is the status of some of the verses which may or not be authentic that is disputed. I've given you my reasons for doubting the authenticity of the ocean-crossing verse. Discussions cannot progress if you continue to ignore new arguments and simply repeat the same, poorly-thought-out arguments ad nauseum.

If you disagree please describe who is a traditional Hindu and what makes him traditional.

This has already been discussed to death in previous threads. The fact that you did not agree with the conclusions does not make them any less clear.

For e.g. while growing up, menstruating women in my extended family were considered "theetu" and unclean and for the days in questions they had to remain without touching anyone else. Is this practice traditional?

This practice was observed by many traditional ladies, I suspect. Whether it is scriptural or not, I cannot say.

Now, the same women have families of their own and do not follow this custom with their daughters. Yet, they continue to call themselves Hindu. Would they therefore be neo-Hindus?

Again, we had a very clear discussion outlining how Neo-Hindus should be classified. I specifically made it a point to discuss how the Traditional/Neo classification should be seen as a spectrum, rather than an "either/or" kind of thing. I also pointed out that it is primarily the reasoning process (i.e. how one arrives at religious conclusions) that really classifies one on this spectrum. There is no point in discussing this all over again, if you are just going to once again ignore it all and tell the whole forum that the whole discussion is stupid. Instead of me wasting my time rehashing the same points, let me instead refer you to this Indologist's views on the subject: http://kelamuni.blogspot.com/2006/09...a-part_11.html - he has quite a few interesting things to say about the subject that parallel the points raised in our discussions here. Warning: This person is not (as far as I know) a traditional Hindu, and so you may feel that nothing he says about Neo-Hinduism need be taken seriously. However, if you really took that position, then you should be similarly dismissive of other theories on Hinduism advanced by the non-Hindu likes of Wendy Doniger, M. Witzel, J. Kripal, et. al. and not be offended by their views. Somehow, I doubt that you would take such a position.

Let me just remind you again, that I would appreciate getting your answer on the vegetarianism question, since you are now on record as saying that the rest of the world's opinion on morality should be the standard by which we determine what is and is not dharma in Hinduism.

[philosoraptor]

Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

There are also powerful animal forms of God, specifically fish, turtles, boars, and lions, just to name a few. So, if "female forms of God" imply that females are equal to men and can be invested with sacred thread, then would you agree that "animal forms of God" imply that animals are equal to men and that animals can be given sacred thread?

Take your time and think it over before answering.

Also, do you mind telling the forum how old you are?

[shiv.somashekhar]

Also, do you mind telling the forum how old you are?

Just a thought. There is the possibility that Dogra may be a female and therefore reluctant to disclose her age.

You have already asked multiple time and no answer is forthcoming.

[TrikonaBindu]

let me instead refer you to this Indologist's views on the subject: http://kelamuni.blogspot.com/2006/09...a-part_11.html - he has quite a few interesting things to say

Thank you, philosoraptor. This is indeed an interesting article. It helps me towards an historical perspective on the kinds of discussions we have been having here. I am "bookmarking" that blog.

Satyameva jayate