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Thread: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

  1. #11

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: I'm not sure. It's partly just training too. The Brahmin priests are generally very well trained. I'd rather hire an electrician with some credentials than some guy working out of his garage because he likes playing with wires.

    Just for your info, I served as the priest here for about 5 years before we could afford a Brahmin, just like someone in Mauritius may have done 200 years ago. Nobody seemed to mind. Even the Brahmins who weren't temple Brahmins didn't mind. In fact they appreciated it, or so they told me. But being poorly trained, I had to make up for that in bhakti, or at least fake it.

    A few people have since told me they wished I could have continued.

    Aum Namasivaya
    In places like that, that would be possible. Even desirable perhaps, since it meets an unfulfilled need of the community. But it would not have been possible in India. That's all I'm saying.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    In places like that, that would be possible. Even desirable perhaps, since it meets an unfulfilled need of the community. But it would not have been possible in India. That's all I'm saying.
    Vannakkam: I think it's possible. Rare, but possible. When I was at Rameswaram there was a white and western assistant priest working right alongside the Brahmins. Don't know if he's still there or not, but it was very clear he was a priest. I just doubt that anyone would bother to ask, or to try. It's not a very prestigious job any more, and certainly low paid.

    Aum Namasivaya

  3. #13

    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: I think it's possible. Rare, but possible. When I was at Rameswaram there was a white and western assistant priest working right alongside the Brahmins. Don't know if he's still there or not, but it was very clear he was a priest. I just doubt that anyone would bother to ask, or to try. It's not a very prestigious job any more, and certainly low paid.

    Aum Namasivaya
    No it's not a prestigious job, except for non-brahmin castes who feel they need to prove something by "becoming" brahmins.

    And this is still an exception. The vast majority of temples that I have seen have brahmin pujaris. For every exception you can think of, I am sure you can think of thousands more that adhere to the hereditary system. From this, one can only come to one of two possible conclusions.

    1) Most Hindus, including the learned Vedantic commentators, are evil people who associate varna with birth. They are not as enlightened as the Hindu American Foundation, the VHP, and the tens of thousands of other Hindu diaspora whose only knowledge of Hinduism is what they read on a webpage.

    2) Hindus did in fact associate varna with heredity, this was the default position, and departures from this standard represent modern innovations.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Vannakkam: Frankly, I don't care. It's historical or intellectual trivia to me. All I want to be able to do is go to my temple, sit, and worship Ganesha. Who runs the temple, or who is allowed into the moolasthanam doesn't concern me. If it helped me get calmer, or live a more dharmic lifestyle, I would care. But it is largely irrelevant to me, and I suspect, the vast majority of Hindus.

    It's a scholarly debate, and I'm no scholar at all. I'm just a simple bhaktar trying to become closer to God. If sitting in a pile of sewage helped, I suppose I'd go do that.

    With that, I'll bow out of this conversation, since I'm one of the evil people, or a modern innovator, or both, I don't know.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 01 May 2013 at 10:56 PM.

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by shiv.somashekhar View Post
    I believe this issue has been discussed over N times on this forum and you were part of at least some of them.
    Which is what I said.

    Unfortunately, asking the question again is unlikely to help much as the people who may respond to your question belong to the same old set and therefore the responses will be the same.
    No. Asking the question again DOES help because unless the person defines a "Brahmin" or a "Shudra" non-circularly, all his arguments can simply be dismissed upfront. This point bears repeating.

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    But like I said, it's probably unique to just the places where indentured labour spread Hinduism. Not sure about Fiji, Guyana, South Africa, etc.
    I am from a Surinam Hindu background living in the Netherlands and traditionally priests have been from brahmin families. They were educated by their parents or by acharyas that came to visit from India. Nowadays things are changing and more people from other castes are taking up the function of priests. A lot of brahmins don't see the value of priesthood, my grandmother's brother who did my upanayana told me it's better to focus on western education than priesthood. On the other hand, a lot of non-brahmins feel discriminated by the older generation of brahmin priests and want to pursue jobs as pujaris. There are temples in the Netherlands that only accept brahmin priests, but there are also a few modern temples that work with non brahmin priests and women. The younger generation doesn't care about these things and are always eager to adopt western values of emancipation. I suppose the Srilankan Tamil community here is much stricter about brahminhood as a qualifier to function as a purohita. There is also a group of Arya Samajists who let anyone become priest.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 02 May 2013 at 01:14 AM.

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste

    This introduction of some ridiculous discussion on Brahmin priests in private religious organizations (non-government owned establishments which do not recieve tax payer money from the citizens of the state, or private businesses that hire employees and offer services for profit to the public) has nothing to do with such laws that forbid discrimination based on circumstance of birth whether race or caste.

    I am not familiar with all aspects of British law, but the same law as practiced in the United States would have no impact one way or another to private religious institutions which do not receive taxpayer funding to support such institutions.

    If your religious institution or temple is not an entity of the goverment by means of receiving government funding of support from the taxes of the hard working citizens, then you can employee only Brahmins, or for that matter only white caucasians, or only gypsy nomads from Spain, whatever you want to do or whoever you want to do pujas.

    However, this same Brahmin has no right to raise a hand in violence against any citizen whatsoever who simply walks down the same sidewalk as this Brahmin no matter what race or caste or sex is this citizen who has all the same rights as the Brahmin has. Any Brahmin who dared to do such a thing will be arrested under law as such a madman should be. Such behavior is also illegal in Mother India, and not only is increasingly being enforced, but commonly the expected civility through out all of India.

    If this same citizen opens a church which is private, recieves no support from the taxes forcefully taken from other citizens of the state and is a church that operates as a non-profit organization (e.g. not a business for profit), it is considered not to be a governmental entity and thus can discriminate all they want. If such a church does not allow blacks for example, they may do so. Of course, this church cannot murder others, nor for example grab some black from the street and force such a black to wash the floor of the church. You can declare yourself an Aryan Nazi or a Racialist or whatever title you want, and you can enforce whatever personal bathing practices, clothing, prayers or eating regulations a declared Aryan Nazi or Racialist wants to do to his or her body or home, but this same Nazi or Racialist has no right to murder, enslave or subject servitude on another. Your designation applies to your own body, your own mind and your own soul, and gives you no right, zero rights, over the body, mind or soul of another. Only if you BECOME that other person can you do so, only if you ADOPT that other as one with yourself, a beloved son.
    No title gives you the right to practice slavery. You can shun anyone you want at your own risk, be it your neighbor, or even your own in-laws or even your own father, but you have no, zero, right or authority to dictate what another can do for a living nor to be your servant or slave.

    Any Brahmin who believes he or she can forcefully practice enslavement or servitude of others be it other Brahmins or any other, and attempts to do so in the US or UK, or even in India, should and likely when caught will be sent to prison for crimes against Natural Law (God or Gods).

    If this same citizen who in this example is a declared Nazi or Racialist happens to open a beer hall or pub where beer is sold to the public for the business profit of the Nazi who owns the beer hall or pub, this Nazi has no right, zero, to put up a sign that reads "No Jews Allowed". Nor can this Nazi who puts out an employment posting to work in the beer hall or pub have the stipulation "No Jews Can Apply".

    Why is this law applied? Because any product sold for profit that has a government tax applied to it, such as beer, makes government part of the business transaction, a partner in it, and government which represents all citizens cannot discriminate against other citizens including Jews. Think of it as government "karma". As a partner in this transaction, the government shares the "karma" of this Nazi in this transaction, and the government is not interested in sharing the evil karma of this Nazi who would kill Jews if given a chance, it already has to burden enough karma for being a partner in the sale of beer.

    So you can have a temple, and hire Brahmins, you cannot tell another they cannot have a temple unless they only hire Brahmins.

    Certainly you do not have the right to dictate what another does according to their ability and qualities to serve society, to learn and become certified for any profession. You never had that right, not today, nor 10,000 years ago. It is anti-Hindu if you practice such repression, that is the teachings of what was taught to me by authorized authorities of Sanatana Dharma. Don't waste my time insulting others with selective quotes from scripture, my teachers do not agree with you, they are authorized Hindus.

    No discrimination laws regarding caste endangers your title. In fact, in the end they are the same sort of anti-discrimination laws that will protect your rights as a Brahmin to do priestly matters, and protect you from the madness of others who hate you. In the United States, you can be a born Brahmin, your can take the lessons on Veda you learned from your father and teach it to anyone, or no one, you like. You may be hired by a temple to do pujas. But you cannot use this to enforce a profession on another, certainly not servitude, if you try then fully expect yourself to be sent to prison. This includes in Mother India.

    No one is taking your caste away. What is your body, your mind, your soul is yours and the Divines. Another's is not. You are in a lower Loka. You have too many failures to imagine.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    "The government has agreed to outlaw discrimination on the basis of caste, extending legal protection to the estimated 400,000 Dalits - so-called untouchables - who live in the UK."

    The law that has been passed does not serve any purpose. Where are these discriminated dalits in Britain? Do they even exist? They are passing a law for the benefit of phantoms to draw negative attention towards Hinduism. Anti-Hindu propagandists always bring up nonexistent persecuted Dalits for their smear campaign.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 02 May 2013 at 01:25 AM.

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    Namaste Sahas.

    Agree that if the claim is 400,000 dalits in UK, obviously this is a phantom number. I have been to UK and even have family there, I have never seen 400,000 dalits. I do not know British Law. I tried to explain US law and religious rights, I imagine Canada is like US in such and I have relatives in Canada as well (also in India, and elsewhere).

    I am not saying we have to love hug low class people, drunks, bums etc.. I am saying we need to wish and help foster wealth for ALL Hindus, because the world is becoming more corrupt and debased. We are a minority in this Loka, and I believe soon there is coming a great conflict with Islam. We must be united, not divided.

    Wealth is power. Do not worship wealth, but all Hindus must be wealthy at this time. When you father goes into the forest if you will, you can be wealthy but your father renounced.

    In THIS world, in THIS time, there are only really two "castes" - Hindus and non-Hindus.

    Hindus must be advisers to men. Listened to by those in power. Their community must be powerful. Again, you do not need to live wealthy to be wealthy.

    Jai Hanuman.

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: 'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

    They have based this law on complete fiction, but as phil says, on a legal technicality it can be used against Hindus who choose to work only with brahmin priests. In the head of any sensible person, a bell should ring, where is the evidence of the persecuted Dalits in Britain that need protection from the evil brahmins, 400.000 nonetheless? Christians have been using the fiction of persecuted Dalits more than a hundred times as propaganda against Hinduism. Everyone should realise this first when persecuted Dalits are used as an excuse to disadvantage Hindus.

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