'caste' discrimination is part of equality bill in UK

[philosoraptor]

Vannakkam: In any human rights legislation, the categories increase over time. "Shall not discriminate based on gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. ..." There are also other things like age, class, looks, language, and things like caste that figure into the overall equation. I have no problem putting any of these into a constitution or political statement.

In a free society, the government should not discriminate based on these things. That, however, is not the issue. The issue is when the government is empowered to tell private entities that they, too, cannot discriminate. Let's take sexual orientation. There are homosexuals who like Hinduism, and it is conceivable that some would want a Hindu wedding for their "homosexual marriages." The pujari who refuses to marry them would be guilty of discrimination and liable for civil suits with stiff financial penalties. Suddenly, a man who has dedicated his life to worshiping Brahman, whose possessions consist of his sacred thread and a few dhotis, can be sued for tens of thousands of dollars. Does this sound just to you?

We should be looking at our own subconscious minds and trying to decipher how we ourselves discriminate unfairly, and then take steps to readjust that. We all do, to some degree, whether we want to admit it or not.

Everyone "discriminates." Everyone. How you react to a well-dressed man with a confidant gait is different from how you react to a disheveled man wearing rags and looking homeless. Yet the basis for discrimination, their external appearance, says nothing about them from the standpoint of virtue. In Hinduism, their hereditary status tells you what they are supposed to be. When people follow their varNAshrama-dharma, it is quite possible to be well-respected regardless of what you wear or how much money you have. But then, that's a kind of discrimination, too, right? The idea that, "You are a brahmin, therefore you should be a detached, morally upright, and pious being" is discrimination. Small wonder many brahmins don't like birth-based varNAshrama, since they want to distance themselves from society's expectations and enjoy materialistic lifestyle without guilt.

[shiv.somashekhar]

With all due respect, Sri Prabhupada's own translations clearly reveal that varna was hereditary. In his Bhagavatam 1st canto translation, he has translated the story of Ashvatthama, son of Drona, who was a warrior by profession, became a murderer out of spite, and yet was freed from the death sentence on the basis of his being a brahmin.

Sri Prabhupada has also translated Bhagavad-gita in which Arjuna, a kshatriya by birth, was discouraged from adopting a brahmin's work.

But did Prabhupada provide a non-circular definition? If not, per wundermonk's system of thought, it should all be dismissed!

[Eastern Mind]

Pranams.

You don't care because it's a subject with which you are uncomfortable.

Vannakkam: I'm not uncomfortable at all. But you can say whatever you want. I make a purposeful intentional attempt to try not to engage in such matters, but sometimes the temptation to enter into such forays is too much and I go open my mouth, which I later realise was a bad idea.

On a personal note, It really does disturb my meditation, and concentration worshiping at the temple I frequent, when I get overly engaged in intellectual discussion of the wrongs and rights of governments, Hinduism, etc. The intellect, once started, has this tendency to turn into some circular spiraling snowball, and even such a valuable activity as sleep can be lost.

This is precisely why I really hesitated trying to offer any suggestions in your other thread about how you were having difficulty staying religious in times of so much stress. I see how these two threads are totally related, but somehow I'm not sure if you do. Which is sad, in my opinion. I sure hope this doesn't anger you even more, and make it more difficult still.

Best wishes, seriously, at coming to some sort of peace, so your religious life will improve.

At that shall end this, from my end.

Aum Namasivaya

[philosoraptor]

Vannakkam: I'm not uncomfortable at all. But you can say whatever you want. I make a purposeful intentional attempt to try not to engage in such matters, but sometimes the temptation to enter into such forays is too much and I go open my mouth, which I later realise was a bad idea.

On a personal note, It really does disturb my meditation, and concentration worshiping at the temple I frequent, when I get overly engaged in intellectual discussion of the wrongs and rights of governments, Hinduism, etc. The intellect, once started, has this tendency to turn into some circular spiraling snowball, and even such a valuable activity as sleep can be lost.

This is precisely why I really hesitated trying to offer any suggestions in your other thread about how you were having difficulty staying religious in times of so much stress. I see how these two threads are totally related, but somehow I'm not sure if you do. Which is sad, in my opinion. I sure hope this doesn't anger you even more, and make it more difficult still.

Best wishes, seriously, at coming to some sort of peace, so your religious life will improve.

At that shall end this, from my end.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranams,

No I'm not angry, and you are right - they are related. I don't think brahmins were meant for doing much of the secular work they find themselves doing. I often wonder if I wouldn't be happier just focusing on study of shAstra, but I also wonder if these views don't represent a form of false renunciation. It's an issue I debate with myself often, not yet with any conclusive answer.

But the point I was getting at in this tread is that birth-based varNAshrama is quite integral to traditional Hinduism, the new-age claims notwithstanding, and legislation attempting to punish Hindus for practicing it is an abomination in a society that claims to value liberty and religious tolerance.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Brahmins are nice to hire for temples, but sometimes you can have too many Brahmins in certain situations. Especially if they take up jobs outside of temples, pujari work and such.

Take the example in Mumbai, regarding four Brahmins who could not get a post in a temple. So they bought a Premier Padmini running on CNG and off they went to get their first phara. However, even in Churchgate no one would hail them down in their taxi. So they went to Nariman point, yet even there no one would hail their taxi. So the drove to Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus, and even there no luck.

They were all over Mumbai, they finally pulled up to a Jain walking down the road with a mask and broom. They asked the Jain if he needed a ride. They would even give a taxi ride for free.

The Jain said no. The four Brahmins asked why? “Because all four of you are sitting in the taxi!” said the Jain. “There is no room.”

ShivaFan was standing not far from the Jain, but he decided to take up a free ride rather than wait for the next taxi, squeezed into the back with two other Brahmins, and did have a nice conversation with the Brahmins.

They realized their business mistake, and decided they didn’t want to be in the taxi business because they were not qualified.

Om Namah Sivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

This is fear mongering.

I took a moment to actually look at the law, and it has nothing to do with what a temple or church does or who they decide to do pujas. This has to do with private businesses (those which sell products or services for a profit that includes a tax from the government and thus makes the government a partner to the transaction) which participate in Capitalism, not private religious institutions which are not capitalist enterprises.

I am not a liberal. This isn’t about who is going to marry who, nor quotas, nor reservations.

This has to do with committing a hate crime against another person or group of people or community simply because they are of some caste, such as a group of Muslims attacking some low-castes leaving a temple, or a Brahmin going out and beating on others who the Brahmin says are “shudras” or “dalits”. This has to do with hate crimes. The same hate crimes legislation also protects Brahmins from attacks, such as might come from Muslims living in the UK who were originally from Pakistan. I myself was threatened by such Muslims and told "you should be killed".

The root of the legislation had to do with an employment tribunal where an employee was unfairly dismissed by an employer simply on the grounds of a higher caste hatred for an employee of lower caste. This is obviously a violation of the law even without the added stipulation of “caste” but helps to clarify response to any defense lawyer arguments on behalf of the perpetrator of such a crime who may argue that it wasn’t religious discrimination (already covered under law) since both parties involved were of the same religion.

And in regards to this injection once again of “caste” (e.g. birth-based), it will be a never ending and useless endeavor which, no matter how strong you feel it is birth-based, is not going to be a part of what the Divine intends for us going forward.

Manu (which I do not accept as Veda nor Agama and so I consider it irrelevant other than on the same level as the Jataka Tales of social commentary during a time where society was under stress) cites an inter-“caste” result where the father of a higher caste, has a child with his wife who is a lower caste, the child is the lower caste (e.g. Brahmin father, Shudra Mother = Shudra child). If that is the formula, and case examples of DNA in conjunction with the proven historical and demographical evidence of massive “inter-caste” mixing including massive introduction of “foreigners” (who became various rulers at times within India proper and given the status of Kshatriya), as well as the exodus of certain strata’s of Hindu society (including notable numbers of Brahmins) out from India and into East Asia where later rulers included mix of Brahmins from the original exodus and local Asians (who were given Kshatriya status), and where such Hindus actually returned to India as well over a period of time, countless examples of large segments of Hindu social strata who simply “acquisitioned” some caste (typically higher, such as going from simple farmers to Kshatriya rulers), inclusive of a long history of liars claiming to be one caste or another over time, if the Manu formula was used then the outcome is clear: Probably there isn’t even a single Brahmin left that has true hereditary lineage back some Varna of Vedic times. None, just as, for example, there are no “true Britons” to speak of. Gone.

But many do not accept the “Manu formula”. For example, many consider whatever “caste” or varna the father is (I do not believe in jati whatsoever so that is why I put caste in quotes), no matter what background the wife is then the child is the “caste” of the father. If we follow traditional teachings in Hinduism of the role and status of the father, viz if Father is “A” and Mother is “B” then the child is “A”, this makes more sense and seems to many Hindus to have more credibility than the “Manu formula” viz Father is “A” and Mother is “B” then child is “B”. If this father lineage formula is used, there is a good chance that many living today can defend a title of Brahmin for example – such title can move in a continuous line from generations past to forward just so long as sons are produced to carry it on. This also aligns with the Hindu traditions of why a son is important.

However, I also discount the later as well. I do not discount it in the sense of saying “a father’s title is never the son’s” -- of course the father who has sway over such matters will effect as well as affect in no small measure the future, status, teachings, attitudes, employment and passions of duty within society of the son. But it is not exclusive. There is an entire Guru tradition, and while I admit this tradition is not as old as the Muni tradition or that of “sages”, this Guru tradition is different and not-birth based. For example, whatever the varna the Guru is, the one who takes on the Guru also takes on that varna.

Considering that it is typical (though not always true) that a Guru is seen, accepted, believed to be a Brahmin, than those who adopt the Guru also take the gotra or varna of the Guru. And considering hardly anyone even thinks of being a Guru today (even in the past, but certainly today), any real Guru is the example of all the qualities of a Brahmin and thus all those who become the servants and disciples and initiates of the Guru INCLUDING WESTERNERS they take on the gotra or actually more accurately the varna of that Guru which in most cases would be Brahmin. In some cases it would be Kshatriya or what is called "rulers" or "statesmen".

So using the last example, there is an infusion of so many peoples (and I consider Hinduism is growing even though also threatened), it is literally impossible to classify one from another by “birth”.

Do not quote me Manu, unless you want me to laugh. Adopting varnashrama is in my opinion simply adopting the gotra or varna of the Guru, or from one’s father as well. It is about your qualities. A sage could be coming down a dusty road and encounter a simple man coming towards him, and can adopt that simple man based on qualities. The simple man becomes the varna of the Sage. There is error in Kali Yuga, no doubt – thus false Gurus, bad fathers. Being a soul in a human body in the Kali Yuga is fraught with dangers, and even the best intentions put into “rules” do not have perfect results. But typically those who go undertake a Guru, who enter into a Sampradaya, while yes there are examples of failed souls, for the most part their qualities were the reason they did so. All else means very little. Those who hang on to such racial attitudes about birth-based are already well into the dust bin of history a long time ago, and while in the villages you still see some who are either benefactors or victims to such birth-based attitudes, I think one should not mistake a general admiration of qualities (such as displayed within a Sampradaya or Guru relationship) with acceptance of “birth-based only”.

Again, you can keep any caste you want. Such laws against discrimination, at least from the perspective of the United States, has nothing whatsoever to do with what a private religious institution decides regarding who they will employee as pujaris, be it only Brahmins or not. Discrimination laws are about public entities that sell or offer services for a business profit in which the item in the transaction includes taxes applied that go to the government and are taxes taken from the citizens who are purchasing such products or services and has nothing to do with non-profit religious institutions. It has to do with this, and with hate crimes.

I do not support reservations. I do not support employment shelters and quotas for “scheduled” classes or any racial quotas in hires. I do not support (what is called in the US) affirmative action.

This is not reservations nor affirmative action, nor shelters nor quotas.

Om Namah Sivaya

[dogra]

You are kidding, right?

Here are some of your statements -

Hindu faith does not condone birth based caste

Prabhupada boldly offered a more forward-thinking reading of references to varna in Vedic...

As mentioned Arya Samaj, RSS, Agniveer, do not follow caste, Iskon:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/cast...communications


Our caste is one: Human

Your statement of "caste is one" is mere personal opinion and nothing more. Caste is a huge deal in India to this day, the extent of which can only be grasped by those who live in the country and especially those who are in positions where they get to see the impact (politics, government, education, etc). The government recognizes backward castes, scheduled castes, most backward castes, etc.

For one last time, this has nothing to do with religion. Your references to irrelevant authorities such as Hinduism, Veda, Iskcon, etc. demonstrate your poor understanding of the subject.

Oh dear, you have failed to understand what is said, ,as those number who use religious justification or claim religious justification have no case, period.
Cultural nature of social evil of caste has to be looked at, and how to tackle, India corrupt politicians has made problem worse.
Here in the UK, it is becoming less important year by year, yet we still need to do more to reduce it further.

[dogra]

With all due respect, Sri Prabhupada's own translations clearly reveal that varna was hereditary. In his Bhagavatam 1st canto translation, he has translated the story of Ashvatthama, son of Drona, who was a warrior by profession, became a murderer out of spite, and yet was freed from the death sentence on the basis of his being a brahmin.

Sri Prabhupada has also translated Bhagavad-gita in which Arjuna, a kshatriya by birth, was discouraged from adopting a brahmin's work.

Now they clearly do not as he has categorically stated so . Varna is not hereditary, as shown, and also birth is not specifically mentioned, as if it was birth this would be clearly stated, you are using examples to try to turn into something, but you have no case:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-...-casteism.html

Thus, the central command of the 14 harmony richas and 10 profession not hereditary richas of Vedas is that all Hindus are totally equal by birth, of one bunch, share same water and food, worship together united in same temple, common are prayers, common purpose, common thoughts, united like spokes of a wheel, common oblation and friendly towards each others.

One becomes a warrior (Rajnya), Brahman (educated ones) or rishi, not by birth but by his efforts/training (karma) vide RV (X.125.5). No one is superior and no one is inferior by birth.

Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic system of religion we have been describing—the varnashrama system created by Krishna—is not to be confused with the present-day caste system—determination of social divisions by birth. But as to eradication of all social divisions, it cannot be done… But the difficulty is that this so-called caste system has come in, on account of the false notion that in order to be a Brahmin, one must be the son of a Brahmin. That is the caste system. But Krishna does not say that. He says “according to quality and work.” He never says “according to birth.” So this so-called caste system in India is a false notion of catur-varnyam, the system of four social divisions. The real system of catur-varnyam means guna-karma-vibhagasah, determination of the four social divisions according to quality and work. One must be qualified.

[dogra]

Caste is reducing here in UK, our Holy texts state clear spirtirual lequality and dignity of labour to all functions.
Lord Krishna states 5.18 to view different people with equal eye, then we have moksha -merging with god, but only if you live a noble life. What we see here is reconciliation, there is no reconciliation with Hinduism has hereditary varna!

[philosoraptor]

This is fear mongering.

I took a moment to actually look at the law, and it has nothing to do with what a temple or church does or who they decide to do pujas. This has to do with private businesses (those which sell products or services for a profit that includes a tax from the government and thus makes the government a partner to the transaction) which participate in Capitalism, not private religious institutions which are not capitalist enterprises.

This distinction is artificial from an economic, legal, and political point of view. Both religious institutions and private businesses are private entities, and as such are exempt from the moral pronouncements of a corrupt, democratically-elected, political elite in a free society. Religious institutions have to follow the same laws when it comes to purchasing land, obtaining building permits, paying employment taxes, and following employment laws. Laws which empower the State to control employment decisions do not, by their very nature, exempt religious institutions, unless said exemptions are specifically legislated. Even then, it's not hard to see how such laws could later be modified to include religious institutions, especially when prevailing sentiments turn against them. Remember: Democracy, which so many appear to implicitly acknowledge as a morally superior institution, is nothing more than imposition of the will of the majority onto the minority at the point of a gun. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand history.

The prevailing attitude of the Western elite towards Hinduism ranges from indifferent to frankly hostile. The tendency among Hindus is to engage in historical revisionism to improve their religion's image in the eyes of the majority.