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Thread: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

  1. #11

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    praNAm MarkMe

    I get the feeling that from time to time you reach temporary vairAgya* (state of desirelessness and free of tendency of any resolve, motivation) regarding everything else except for the cigarrette (owing to habit of anna-prANa kosha). Also, in another sense the ego attached to the smoking is there. If it wasn't, you wouldn't get angry because [a part of] you wanted to smoke a cigarrete. This sAttvic ego says "I am not supposed to smoke" (which is good in the long run)

    Regarding EGO: Acc. to VaishNav schools, you do not lose the most basic true ahaMkAr* (basic existential ego), but one must lose the false-ego (which is all about me, mine, makes resolutions to do things for oneself (sva-sankalpa*), which expects praise, resents blame and criticism, etc.). Here, serving the Will of the Supreme Person is treated as an exception to the sankalpas. (i.e. divine sankalpa = no sankalpa)


    From what you have said it looks like you have almost lost the false-ego, but not the basic existential ego, which is why Eastern Mind reads the "my" and "I" in the posts. (by the way he was refering to himself as "this ignorant fool", not to you.)
    If we cannot communicate without these words (I, my), it must mean we cannot lose the most basic existential ego at least as long as we communicate. Wanting to communicate is also a sankalpa.

    Letting go of all and any tendency for sankalpa (keeping goals, wanting to do this and that - no matter how good the intention may be) can perhaps lead to that state of being under the heavy ocean.

    If that is not a very desirable state (at least as of today), then holding onto the Supreme Person via self-less devotion can keep one out of the need for any other sankalpa in this world, except bhakti (devotion - which need not be in/of this world). However, as long as the body lives, some sankalpa will be there, it will finally taper off.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

    _________
    *vairAgya = absence of desires and absence of resolution (resolve) of any kind
    *ahaMkAr = "I" ness, ego
    *sankalpa (saMkalpa) = resolve
    Smaranam,
    Thank you for these details I will have the opportunity to study. My first reaction is that I have to go to work, so just to say for now, wow! This gives me a direction of where to look next. I am thankful for that.

    I have been fooled by something, for sure. The sense of not experiencing internal conflict seems quite compelling to me. I have also interpreted (guessed) the negativity I have experienced as badness - bad programming but not internal conflict. I feel like I haven't experienced that, but that I have embodied it. It has been difficult, because things have seemed so different, and now, for the past 3 years, I have enjoyed some kind of a lack of internal pain, but not, as you point out, some kind of I. It has been like I lost something, and I have not known what.

    I must ask, I made the point about 'I' and language. For example, you start by saying, "I get the feeling...", and this strikes me as an example of how it seems to me there is no way to avoid this when communicating. I recall being told such concessions would have to be made to communicate. How do you feel about this?

    ---------------------------
    Eastern Mind,
    I think that you have written correctly, and that I have read it backwards. I apologize for this waste of time.

  2. #12
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Namaste,

    If I have understood your post right, subconsciously you maybe experiencing the much talked about ‘ two bird theory‘: ….One of the most famous hymn is Rg-Veda 1:164.
    Among the celebrated elements from it, most people will know the simile of the two birds, one eating and the other just looking on (later a parable for the ego and the Self);
    the first division of the circle in 12 and in 360…..

    Shankaracharya in the recent past ( in the hindu timescale) and long before him, among other ancient texts, both Mundaka and Swetasavatara Upanishads also have clearly referenced the same concept:

    Two birds, united always and known by the same name, closely
    cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the
    other looks on without eating.

    Seated on the same tree, the jiva moans, bewildered by its
    impotence. But when it beholds the other, the Lord worshipped
    by all and His glory, it becomes free from grief.

    Only you can identify if the above analogy can explain your own frame of mind, whilst others would have to use a lot of imagination and speculate,
    on the nature of the waves of wisdom that are washing off the ‘me’ attribute of your core being (your Self).
    On an aside, the one acharya that made the phrase ’ iam an ignorant fool ‘ a very popular way of doing away with his own ego, in the very recent times,
    was none other than Ramakrishna parama hansa himself. The venerated guru had almost on a daily basis used to say this in front of his own followers
    ..Sorry if I have gone off the trajectory by not understanding your post, in which case you may ignore this post.

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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    It's language. What else do you do? Remove the "I' from when you speak? You could put things in so many ways, but frankly, I think you make it sound like you missed your yoga class this morning.
    Vannakkam: I'm truly sorry I have offended you by entering the discussion. I went back and deleted the previous posts. Clearly there are others far more knowledgeable than me for you to discuss with. Best wishes.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post

    To be clear, Yajvan, it seems earthly and ignorant. If I dream, I don't know it. When I'm in deep sleep, I don't know it. But I know more - I've experienced more. When awake, I feel as if I'm nothing and experiencing a (edit relatively superficial body (which I still experience).

    The day after this new condition began, I had a moment of eye contact with my beloved dad, and then I had to go down on the floor for a couple of hours, and there was swimming in bliss, but then that ended. It involved what seemed like a new, joyous self coming into the body and having to learn to work the arms and legs, but, that ocean of bliss experience ended. There were twists I would have ever expected. At one point, a little beeper went off in the central nervous system and said "time for a cigarette", and then it was as though my joyous new self got very angry, and then it got sad, and there were tears, and then there was the idea of cutting back as some kind of a deal. And then that experience ended, returning to the nothing-like self mentioned above.

    Could this be a very undeveloped state of egolessness? This is what I have been wondering.
    So, we need to go slow here... many will wish to partipate in this conversation - that is fine. But lets go slow so one ( you and the reader) get max. benefit from the conversations at hand...
    First, lets get one thing out of the way - let's not concern ourselves about smoking. We will leave this for another time. A great muni of our time śrī nisarga-datta maharāj smoked and it is neither here or there. I am not promoting it, its just not worth the effort at this point.

    back to the conversation
    If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

    Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
    This helps me better understand your intent.


    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 May 2013 at 07:25 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    I must ask, I made the point about 'I' and language. For example, you start by saying, "I get the feeling...", and this strikes me as an example of how it seems to me there is no way to avoid this when communicating. I recall being told such concessions would have to be made to communicate. How do you feel about this?
    *First, with this post, we can leave this topic here, so it does not come in the way of conversation between you and YajvanJi.

    I was not making any conscious attempts to avoid the first person at all. What you are refering to is called 'vyavahAr' - to conduct "worldly transactions" or "vyavahAr" one has to play that role, and the pronouns have to be used, yes. It does not necessarily mean we have false-ego.

    Further (as an aside), calling out to the Lord as "me" and "You" is something divine that makes divine use of this existential ego, and it is most welcome in that case. THAT is not the 'vyavahAr' mentioned above. That falls in a divine category.

    If you are refering to this that i said:

    If we cannot communicate without these words (I, my), it must mean we cannot lose the most basic existential ego at least as long as we communicate. Wanting to communicate is also a sankalpa.
    The intention behind writing this was to show how basic our pure ahaMkAr is to existence, and it was an attempt to show the two different egos(false-ego and real pure existential ego)

    For one to 'appear to' lose the existential ego completely, they would have to be in an avadhUt-like or python-like state all the time (glimpses/moments of which you seem to have seen?)- and not respond to external inputs from the world. Even in that state it is said that the existential ego is never vanquished, only dormant.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #16

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    So, we need to go slow here... many will wish to partipate in this conversation - that is fine. But lets go slow so one ( you and the reader) get max. benefit from the conversations at hand...
    ...
    If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

    Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
    This helps me better understand your intent.


    iti śivaṁ
    I have wanted to understand the experiences I have had and the state or position I am in now.

    Quote Originally Posted by charitra
    Two birds, united always and known by the same name, closely
    cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the
    other looks on without eating.

    Seated on the same tree, the jiva moans, bewildered by its
    impotence. But when it beholds the other, the Lord worshipped
    by all and His glory, it becomes free from grief.
    I will fit a response to this in with the information I would like to provide the discussion at this point.

    3 years ago, I had these experiences... The first was the sense of knowing that a 'first-person' originally there was then gone, along with the little 'pop' in the thalamus. The second was the couple hours of swimming in bliss the following day.

    In the context of the two birds, I responded to my situation in respect to a few points of consideration. I made a point of facing the world instead of facing God; that I would use my mind in the world as a good use of this "lop-sided" organism, and I would take it upon myself to complete a project which contributes to the world that "my previous first-person" had been working on since year 2000, since it was not completed at that time.

    That being said, one thing that has been described at this point is a very worldly and not so very spiritual experience. I was initially really surprised at how tiny or insignificant the initial 'pop' was. Other things have changed. Satisfaction occurs under any circumstance on some level.

    And I think it is an interesting point as to the loss of some part or kind of ego, but clearly not some other part or kind. I am struck by the level of permanent relative satisfaction, as combined with an ongoing "I" experience, as I recognize NOW, seemingly at some other level than before. At this point, it just does not occur the same, or have the same implications. It is as if there is some level of a lack of conflict and a persistent satisfaction which does not include the loss of ego-I.

    I can embody anger and negative emotions, but I feel as though I cannot experience them so directly, as before. (I will mention a science theory below) In the past 3 years, I have been struck on occasion by the sense of negative emotion as combined with a lack of inner conflict, but this cannot be the case, eh?

    In my thinking, there have been fears of a couple of things. One is a fear of turning to God and losing the need to complete the project which began 13 years ago. The other has been to not be able to handle a higher energy, as characterized by the experiences of being crushed by some great weight. I have some fears on the idea of developing further.

    One last thing... Based upon these experiences as I have described above, it has occurred to me to define whatever it was I lost differently than the standard definitions of ego. Particularly with the 'pop' in the thalamus, I have hypothesized an ego-like function of the human physical organism, where something like a governor-function, which contains its own rules and structure, or manipulated mind, also acts as an internalized first-person point of perspective, and which may lend itself to discovery in medical science. I hope that is not too much of a tangent in relation to the rest. I do not know how much people are aware of their brain activity, but I first took a curiosity and development in being consciously aware of these things around 20 years ago. (I would like this development documented)

    To sum, I have to confess to having made a choice to face the world, and not God. I have held a fear of losing a worldly concern, and a fear of not being able to handle higher development. I have also experienced a degree of satisfaction with a loss of impetus for change. This discussion has also triggered renewed inspiration, for the first time in 3 years, on the course of investigating further into understanding my current state, as well as participating in further development. I have experienced ignorance of my current state and beyond.

    It has been a different 3 year period than the 21 years before it. For all of those 21 years, it felt as though I had a puzzle that had to be solved. Then, it seemed as though I had completed it, and no longer felt any such need. For example, I always tended to have blank paper and pen to think, but I haven't done that in the past 3 years. At this moment, I enjoy a new sense of direction in further learning and development (with fears also being stated).
    Last edited by MarkMe; 21 May 2013 at 07:21 AM.

  7. #17

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMe View Post
    . Particularly with the 'pop' in the thalamus, I have hypothesized an ego-like function of the human physical organism, where something like a governor-function, which contains its own rules and structure, or manipulated mind, also acts as an internalized first-person point of perspective, and which may lend itself to discovery in medical science.
    Namaste

    I felt that 'pop in the crown a few years ago (2007 perhaps) but KRshNa was already with me then i.e. had had several more interesting divine experiences before that which came from "another source", a higher divine source not in the normal intellect-mind.

    Anyways, with this 'pop' i instantly reached the very peaceful state of not caring at all - or actually not worrying about anything AT ALL. Complete lack of anxiety over anything. I see that was KRshNa's mercy.

    While the presence of KRshNa in itself had made me fearless and worriless, this pop seemed to add on to that.
    For half an hour/ an hour that afternoon i not only did not worry, but i did not care about anything at all.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #18

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    I felt that 'pop in the crown a few years ago (2007 perhaps) but KRshNa was already with me then i.e. had had several more interesting divine experiences before that which came from "another source", a higher divine source not in the normal intellect-mind.

    Anyways, with this 'pop' i instantly reached the very peaceful state of not caring at all - or actually not worrying about anything AT ALL. Complete lack of anxiety over anything. I see that was KRshNa's mercy.

    While the presence of KRshNa in itself had made me fearless and worriless, this pop seemed to add on to that.
    For half an hour/ an hour that afternoon i not only did not worry, but i did not care about anything at all.

    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    Smaranan,
    That is fascinating to me, and very reassuring to me that I am not isolated there. For me, it was in the center of the sphere of the head (center between the front of the ears), and it was the first time I had a feeling in that location. Since that time, there have been occasions of some kind of beam of energy from there to the top of my head, but no sense beyond that. It seemed like the shape of a flashlight beam, and to have an obvious need to continue past the physical head, and that perhaps I had no sense of the ethereal beyond that, and only the physical part was in the domain of my perception.

    I am off to work now and I will be back before tomorrow.

  9. #19
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    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    There are a few things that are interesting to consider. First it is noble for you to try and figure out what occurred in years past. Yet the thing about the past is, well its the past. The experience was given to you for your use.
    Now, lets just say you do understand your experience to a level of satisfaction that meets your expectation. Then what ? If that experience does not compel you further then one has passed up a diamond thinking it to be a rock.

    So, what then is there to do ? Like many that have these experiences they are missing the knowledge that compliments the experience - not just for comprehension but for 'next steps'. It is like a road map. One sees where one wishes to go , then compares the map to the road signs that are called out on the map. Oh yes, this is the way... I see the store that is called out on the map... the bridge that is indicated. Like that one proceeds.
    Now when one travels and does not understand where they are going , then its easy to be baffelled. They can mistake the bridge for something other then what it is. They may think they are in New York, but may be in Deli.

    So, as far as I can tell your introspection is a worthy cause. Yet in my opinion you may wish to consider what is next. Some get to this point and turn back and go home. Others keep to the path.

    So, what of your experience ? Based upon your wording , your nervous system allowed you to entertain the transcendent and activity at the same time. This is a very natural thing when it occurs but foreign to many , as it is not part of ones daily reference point. This level of awareness is the basis of all other levels of consciousness a person experiences. It is the foundation. When it is developed to its fullest extent it changes the world for that person. When it is not developed to its fullest and experienced now and then, then the person is compelled to find out what it was ( or what it is).

    So, for you as a human-being you need to decide what to do with the gift given to you. Unfold it, or just try and understand it. One choice makes it blossom, the other keeps it in the background. as with all humans you have a choice. Choose well.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 May 2013 at 06:51 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #20

    Re: Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hari om
    ~~~~~

    There are a few things that are interesting to consider. First it is noble for you to try and figure out what occurred in years past. Yet the thing about the past is, well its the past. The experience was given to you for your use.
    Now, lets just say you do understand your experience to a level of satisfaction that meets your expectation. Then what ? If that experience does not compel you further then one has passed up a diamond thinking it to be a rock.

    So, what then is there to do ? Like many that have these experiences they are missing the knowledge that compliments the experience - not just for comprehension but for 'next steps'. It is like a road map. One sees where one wishes to go , then compares the map to the road signs that are called out on the map. Oh yes, this is the way... I see the store that is called out on the map... the bridge that is indicated. Like that one proceeds.
    Now when one travels and does not understand where they are going , then its easy to be baffelled. They can mistake the bridge for something other then what it is. They may think they are in New York, but may be in Deli.
    That sounds exactly right for me, Vajvan. For 3 years, I have stopped and wondered where I am, without a good idea of where to go from X.

    Quote Originally Posted by vajvan
    So, as far as I can tell your introspection is a worthy cause. Yet in my opinion you may wish to consider what is next. Some get to this point and turn back and go home. Others keep to the path.

    So, what of your experience ? Based upon your wording , your nervous system allowed you to entertain the transcendent and activity at the same time. This is a very natural thing when it occurs but foreign to many , as it is not part of ones daily reference point. This level of awareness is the basis of all other levels of consciousness a person experiences. It is the foundation. When it is developed to its fullest extent it changes the world for that person. When it is not developed to its fullest and experienced now and then, then the person is compelled to find out what it was ( or what it is).

    So, for you as a human-being you need to decide what to do with the gift given to you. Unfold it, or just try and understand it. One choice makes it blossom, the other keeps it in the background. as with all humans you have a choice. Choose well.

    iti siviam
    OK. I did express some fears. I don't suppose the fear of some higher energy is well-founded? I may be manifesting the heavy weight situation out of fear in thought, for example? I think I can trust God with whether or not pursuing the project mentioned is a good idea, and how. God knows, I've been giving it little attention.

    I know this discussion has given me the ability to find new direction into the future. I still have to spend time with it, and with some of the Sanskrit terms and concepts in it, and make them mine. Any old concepts I was working with did not work with my experience. As I said, I wanted to document something, which I still find interesting to learn more about, but I also have energy for this new direction.

    Thank you,
    Mark

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