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Thread: Gods position:

  1. #1
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    Gods position:

    Namaste,
    What is your thoughts on the position of our God as a intergalactic super power? Do you think the Hindu God or another like Allah is the Superpower? Or... do You think Earth has a God that is the acting super power?
    If you think there is a God upon Earth, Do you think that God is the almighty Creator or the discoverer of our celestial dimension, who has also been created by the possible almighty creator? Is it possible that God worshipped on Earth is a transitory enabler to possibly reach the creator? In hindu terms, I think i'm asking if Krshna the supreme personality is a separate entity from Brahma the Creator. There is a third entity is there not?


    Maste Nam,
    Zardozi
    Last edited by Zardozi; 15 March 2007 at 02:47 PM.

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste Zardozi,

    You know Zardozi, you've got some very interesting ways of relating to ideas!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi View Post
    Do you think that God is the almighty Creator or the discoverer of our celestial dimension, who has also been created by the possible almighty creator?
    Are you saying that the Creator Himself has been created by an even greater Creator? If so, that's the very idea of Brahmā. Brahmā, the Creator, who created the universe, Himself came to be born at some point. This is why we have concepts of like Brahmā's lifetime, Brahmā's day, night, etc.

    Is it possible that God worshipped on Earth is a transitory enabler to possibly reach the creator?
    I guess from a certain perspective you could say the Panentheistic Divine is realized through the Pantheistic Divine, if that makes any sense .

    In hindu terms, I think i'm asking if Krshna the supreme personality is a separate entity from Brahma the Creator.
    No they cannot be. Brahmā must be an expansion of the Supreme Personality. In Vaishnavism, technically, Brahmā is one of the Guna Avatars.

    There is a third entity is there not?
    What would that be?

    OM Shanti,
    A.



  3. #3
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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste Agni,
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Namaste Zardozi,

    You know Zardozi, you've got some very interesting ways of relating to ideas!
    Its gets even more demoniac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Are you saying that the Creator Himself has been created by an even greater Creator? If so, that's the very idea of Brahmā. Brahmā, the Creator, who created the universe, Himself came to be born at some point. This is why we have concepts of like Brahmā's lifetime, Brahmā's day, night, etc.
    No. I'm saying The creator has created a species that is of a more supreme personality than that of us but not of it. The root of my problem is in deciding if our God or which God if more than 1 is the celestial creator(Brahma) If there is more than 1, than that makes me think that we have been discovered by an alien species that is acting as a Supreme Personality(Krshna) But I'll probably throw that theory out now, because if a third party had all the god like attributes and was created by god, it might as well be the same thing or a mutual equall. And thats pointless. ( theres goes my goals of life) Unless If I can say that Brahma, Krshna and Shiva are separate entities.
    I thought about a separate entity because the Bhagavad Gita illustration of the white horses and chariot, the top of the chariot looks like a UFO. And another illustration shows a blue man with corroded legs running on planets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    I guess from a certain perspective you could say the Panentheistic Divine is realized through the Pantheistic Divine, if that makes any sense .
    I have to look it up again. - God is the Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    No they cannot be. Brahmā must be an expansion of the Supreme Personality. In Vaishnavism, technically, Brahmā is one of the Guna Avatars.

    What would that be?
    OM Shanti,
    A.
    So you're telling me Brahma and krshna are from the same entity. I have to look it up, But I think it is Shiva the destroyer who is the third entity. And Vishnu is the second. My interpretation of krshna is to be a superior human while he is the Head representative of our species. The other 3 are the creator, preserver, and destroyer who are actually 1 being as well, who may be known as "Bhagawan"? Im confused.


    Maste Nam,
    Zardozi
    Last edited by Zardozi; 15 March 2007 at 05:25 PM.

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste Zardozi.

    A Family of Gods

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi
    So you're telling me Brahma and krshna are from the same entity. I have to look it up, But I think it is Shiva the destroyer who is the third entity. And Vishnu is the second. My interpretation of krshna is to be a superior human while he is the Head representative of our species. The other 3 are the creator, preserver, and destroyer who are actually 1 being as well, who may be known as "Bhagawan"? Im confused.
    Perhaps every seeker, specially from the Western Religions, has this problem of relating Gods. There are so many of them! Brahman, Krishna and the Trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Siva besides the Goddesses and the second generation Gods such as Ganesha, Skanda and Saasta (Ayyappa), the third generation of Gods called Devas and finally down to the saints and sages who are reverred as God Himself! This is a general idea of Godhood in Hinduism.

    Take the Western Religions and you have the Supreme Personality Christ or Allah or Jehova or Whoever. And then there are the 'sons' of God such as Jesus. Then the Archangel and other angels who are common to many Western Religions.

    How do we relate all these Gods? Surely, God is One who is variously known as Brahman or Christ or Allah (in the three major religions of the world) but what about those under Brahman? Considering that humans as followers of different faiths do co-exist (desipite our wrangles) on the Earth, how do these various Gods co-exist? And how do we apply the notion of superiority to them, specially when creation itself and this universe as its physical counterpart is based on a structure of hierarchy? This problem becomes real for a Westerner who switches over to Hinduism or appreciates Hinduism and wants to follow it (besides his native religion) after having been brought up in native religious tradtions since childhood. The appreciation of Hinduism is mainly because of the colorful variety of practice of the religion in the Bhakti and Yoga paths that are highly practical and does give peace of mind and spiritual progress to the common man by his own efforts, a salient feature that is hardly found and rarely recognized in the Western Religions.

    My ideas on this interesting subject are as follows. Members may remove fallacies in them and add more clarity:

    We have a beautiful concept of relating Gods in Hinduism: the concept of a family of Gods! When the whole world of humanity is a family (vasudeva kutumbakam) why not apply the concept to the world of divine entities also? The family hiearchy goes on these lines:

    The Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Siva originate from Saguna Brahman, the human form of Brahman (Brahman is intrinsically the THAT or Nirguna Brahman). And Hinduism does grant the freedom to consider any of the major Gods as the equivalent of Brahman. Even though your company has a CEO, your immediate or an intermediate boss could be your Godfather and the equivalent of the CEO! It is in this sense that the Vaishnavities consider MahaVishnu or Krishna as the Supreme God (Brahman), the Saivities consider Shiva as the Supreme God, the Saktas (worshipers of the feminine forms of God) consider ParaShakti (a conglomerate of Durga, Lakshmi and Sarasvati) as the Supreme God. Incidentally, the Goddesses as consorts of the Gods represent the shakti part of the duality, the Gods representing the consciousness part. Brahman as the almighty intelligent power immanent in all his creation, appears as a duality as consciousness and power (or shakti or energy) when creation arises.

    The beauty of it all is that the Hindu sects may be exclusive, sincere and rigorous in their own compartmentalized channels of faith, but there is no hatred or competition among the sects, since everyone recognizes that God is One who can take any form. As Agnideva has said, creation arose from the imbalance of the there gunas and each member of the Trinity represents one specific guna.

    If Christianity and Islam are so progressive, and strive for peaceful co-existence in an atomosphere of real amity ad brotherhood, Hindus would gladly accept (and even worship) Jesus and Allah as their personal Gods, though they generally treat them on par with Brahman already.

    Our Puranas speak of the relationship of a family that exists among our Gods: Brahma is son of Vishnu (born out of his navel-lotus in this cycle of creation). Vishnu and Shiva are brother-in-laws: Shiva's consort is Vishnu's sister. Though such relationships do imply a notion of superiority (for example, Brahma being the youngest of the Trinity and having his own cycle of births and deaths is under Vishnu and Shiva who stay on for longer periods of time), the male principle or consciousness part of Godhood that comprises the Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva and their female counterparts Sarasvati-Lakshmi-Durga are considered to be on the same footing.

    The second-generation Gods such as Ganesha, Skanda and Saasta are rarely spoken of on par with Brahman or their parental ancestors, but they have their own devout followers. Ganesha is considered to represent the physical form of the entire creation, and therefore he is worshipped first in all endeavours because everything created resides in him. Ganeshan sits at the Muladhara chakra and rules over the path to the lower chakras. Thus he is the closest personal god of a Hindu.

    Skanda is the creation of Shiva's Wisdom, and he has the distinction of having taught the meaning of the Aum mantra to his own father! Skanda married Vishnu's daughers (when they took avatar as Indra's daughters) so he is the son-in-law of Vishnu.

    Saasta originated when Shiva and Vishu came together for a specific cause. The term Saasta means guardian and thus he is the guardian deity of every village in India, though his primary abode is in Sabarimala, Kerala. As a Guardian he does the jobs of sustenance and destruction, the features he got from Vishnu and Shiva.

    Sri Krishna, even though he is an avatar of Vishnu, has a special place in Hinduism. After He spoke his Bhagavat Gita, he is considered to be the very Brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhood, as his followers would fondly refer to.

    A Hindu also worships Sri Rama, a Vishnu avatar and the role model of an Ideal Human Being and his counterpart Sita, the Goddess of the Earth.

    As a Hindu, I may consider myself a child of any of the Trinity or their Consorts or the other Gods, but since everyone of them is related in a family, I have no quarrels with my brothers and sisters who might relate themselves to a different parent. I don't even consider them to be my cousins, but as my own sahodara (co-uterine) because everyone of us is ultimately the child of the One God. More importantly, I also recognize that the Gods themselves do not consider one to be superior to another and teach us that they are all forms of Brahman.

    The Devas, as the third generation Gods are the equivalent of the angels of the Western Religions, with the difference, that in Hindusim we do give them their due importance in the divine hierarchy and worship them. The saints and sages take the position of the immediate gurus and are treated as human representations of Godhood after the statement Acharya devo bhava (the teacher becomes God).

    As an Advaitin, I know that everything is verily Brahman. Still, I appreciate the divine hiearchy and consider it as necessary in my spiritual path, because when you have miles to go, you need milestones to keep track of your progress.

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste Zarodozi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi View Post
    Its gets even more demoniac.
    Should we be a little concerned Zardozi?

    No. I'm saying The creator has created a species that is of a more supreme personality than that of us but not of it. The root of my problem is in deciding if our God or which God if more than 1 is the celestial creator(Brahma) If there is more than 1, than that makes me think that we have been discovered by an alien species that is acting as a Supreme Personality(Krshna) But I'll probably throw that theory out now, because if a third party had all the god like attributes and was created by god, it might as well be the same thing or a mutual equall. And thats pointless. ( theres goes my goals of life)
    Well, I'm not fully certain what you're saying here, but seems like you've solved your own riddle, so we'll let it rest. Anyway, if there are alien species out there, they must also have been created by Brahmā, per Hindu theology. We have lists of 14 types of beings that came into existence including Devas, humans, animals, yakshas, rakshasas, etc.

    I thought about a separate entity because the Bhagavad Gita illustration of the white horses and chariot, the top of the chariot looks like a UFO.
    If you're interested in UFOs you should look into the term 'Vimana'. There's considerable interest on the internet about the vimanas (flying implements) spoken of in the Puranas.

    And another illustration shows a blue man with corroded legs running on planets.
    Can you post it here? I'm quite curious now .

    I have to look it up again. - God is the Universe?
    Well, depends on your philosophy. In monistic philosophies, yes. But Hindu monistic philosophies are actually panentheistic - the manifest universe is a (small) part of the Divine, so to speak. In non-monistic philosophies, the answer is no - the Divine pervades all of existence, but is not matter itself.

    So you're telling me Brahma and krshna are from the same entity. I have to look it up, But I think it is Shiva the destroyer who is the third entity. And Vishnu is the second. My interpretation of krshna is to be a superior human while he is the Head representative of our species. The other 3 are the creator, preserver, and destroyer who are actually 1 being as well, who may be known as "Bhagawan"? Im confused.
    Saidevo has written a very detailed message about God in Hinduism, I'd read that really carefully, not much I can really add to what he's said. In Vaishnavism, Krishna (Narayana) is the Supreme, He is Bhagavan, the One, the only. Rudra, the Dissolver, Vishnu, the Sustainer, and Brahmā, the Creator are His (lower) forms, called Guna Avatars. Associated with tamas, He is called Rudra; associated with sattva, He is called Vishnu, and associated with rajas, He is called Brahmā. Hope that helps dispel some confusion.

    Maste Nam,
    Z, I'm curious - what's the significance of inverting namaste?

    OM,
    A.



  6. #6
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    Re: Gods position:

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    A Family of Gods
    As an Advaitin, I know that everything is verily Brahman. Still, I appreciate the divine hiearchy and consider it as necessary in my spiritual path, because when you have miles to go, you need milestones to keep track of your progress.
    Namaste saidevo and Z,
    Saidevo, you have posted a fine review of the order in the universe....
    Z, you have brought some interesting questions to HDF. All can be answered from the shastra's at our disposal e.g. Rig ved, Upanishads, Purana's. Yet I now little to nothing about space ships, I cannot help you there. But your answers you seek are just a book away...

    There is only One , who says?
    vishvam ekam charat patatri vishunam vi jatam (Rig Ved 3.54.8) in simple terms says, The All One has become what moves, what flies, all that is manifold.
    All the worlds are set within the navel of the One without birth - (Rig Ved 10.114.5)

    A post that takes this a bit further may assist in this conversation:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9251&postcount=1

    Yet pending the books you read different gods are disucssed. Why so? To express all the different qualities of that Fullness (bhuma) of Being.
    All the permuatations and expressions of the Divine that chooses to display this creative intelligence we see thoughout creation. So when we look for that quality of perfection, we discuss Sri Ram. When we look for the forcefulness, we discuss/recognize Rudra. When we look to clearing the path for progress, we consider Ganesana. Like that , it is all the expression of the same infinite Being. If we look to the Bhagavad-gita this will help you to take all the Veda's and extract the 'cream'... it is , in 700 verses, all the knowledge anyone would need. Now, reading does not guarantee comprehension. This is where HDF can lend a hand. This Gita is for all levels of consciousness, it has teachings for the householder, as well as the sadhu.

    There are additional posts that will assist you in your understanding,
    consider http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...39&postcount=1 and the string of discussions on Brahman. This will create a nice base line.
    Poke around a bit more on HDF there is an abundence of excellent information to read, consider, and question.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste, Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Z, I'm curious - what's the significance of inverting namaste?
    OM,
    A.
    Gujarati Translation:
    Maste or Masti - is being playful
    Nam = Name

    Thus I can Greet someone by saying, "hello, my name is game"
    or on a serius thought it makes my name that with a destiny.

    Maste Nam,
    Zardozi

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Namaste Zarodozi,
    .... .Should we be a little concerned Zardozi?


    .... .Can you post it here? I'm quite curious now .

    OM,
    A.
    Agni,
    I'm working up the nerve to actually write up a lengthy personal view on Hinduism.

    Here is the link to The picture of who I think is Krshna running in space over planets with corroded legs.
    http://www.asitis.com/gallery/plate25.jpg

    Maste Nam,
    Zardozi

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    Re: Gods position:

    Namaste Jigar,

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi View Post
    I'm working up the nerve to actually write up a lengthy personal view on Hinduism.
    Go ahead and write it up. I love to hear things from new perspectives, even if they dont fit traditional models. I have learned that just because I may not be able to understand or relate to something, doesnt mean it is not right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi View Post
    Here is the link to The picture of who I think is Krshna running in space over planets with corroded legs.
    This is an interesting picture, Jigar. Never seen it before. The caption says the following:
    Bhagavad-gita 7.4-5 Spirit soul sustains the material universe of earth, water, fire, etc. (represented as the body). The subtle body-mind, intelligence and fales ego-is represented by the red dot on the forehead. The soul is seated in the heart of the gross body.
    My copy of the BG for these verses says the following: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, reason and also ego; these constitute My nature eightfold divided. This indeed is My lower (material) nature; other than this, by which the whole universe is sustained, know it to be My higher (or spiritual) nature in the form of Jiva (the life-principle), O Arjuna.

    So, the image is of the physical body made up of the five elements (the pancha mahabhutas) earth, water, fire, air and ether (space). You see the legs in the picture are made of rocks (earth), one of the hands is flowing water, the torso is a flame (fire), the arms are swirling blue (wind), and hes running through space. So the idea is that the physical body and the physical universe are composed of the five elements. The dot on the forehead, the caption reads, represents the mind, intelligence and ego (the antakaranas). So, the man actually represents the physical and subtle bodies of the individual. If you look carefully at the heart, you see an image of Krishna, and that is the soul.

    OM Shanti,
    A.



  10. #10
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    Re: Gods position:

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Zardozi View Post
    Namaste,

    Agni,
    I'm working up the nerve to actually write up a lengthy personal view on Hinduism.

    Here is the link to The picture of who I think is Krshna running in space over planets with corroded legs.
    http://www.asitis.com/gallery/plate25.jpg Maste Nam, Zardozi
    Namaste Z,
    thank you for the URL to the picture... this picture has been 'round for some years now, as part of the Krisna Consciousness organization, Srila Prabupada as the guru and swamiji that perpetuated this modern day movement.
    This picture represnents Krsna as the 5 tattva's , in which all of existence resides ( earth, air, fire, water and akasha, or space) as you will see these elements in the picure. re: "...shows a blue man with corroded legs running on planets. " , His legs are depcited as rocks, mountains, etc. He is also residing in space in this picture and that requires other planets to be shown to add relevence. Another significant reason to be in 'space' is that of Brahman.

    Brahman as a 'personality' or metaphor/example is akasha, hence the link. We have multiple posts on this Brahman, if you care to take a look.

    Also note in the heart area of the Being shown. This is the Atman, present in everything. For me, this points to the fact, that in the final analysis even the tattva's ( elements) are Atman, or consciousness. Now, who can sustain and confirm this POV? Braharishi Vashista, points this out in his Yoga Vashista shastra.

    hope this helps... also, if you 'reseaching' Hinduism, take a look at the origin of this word Hindu, and you you will find it comes from Sindu, a river in India. I will leave you with that. I find the word less then desirable and not a crisp name for this most profound dharma. I prefer ( and again this is one person), Arsa Dharma or Sanatana Dharma Even buddhists choose to call it Rsi-mata or the the doctrine of the rishi's.


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 March 2007 at 12:07 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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