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Thread: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

  1. #1

    Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Hi All:

    Many in Sanatana Dharma have come to believe and accept the role of fulfilling Karma/Reincarnation as a primary vehicle to attain Moksha (liberation).

    Isn’t there a danger of superimposition of this theory on to a real goal and purpose of creation, especially for man, which is to undertake the spiritual journey and come to know “self “ and the connection with its source?

    What are your thoughts?

    Blessings,

    p.s. I have posted two threads they are somewhat interconnected!

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    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Hi All:

    Many in Sanatana Dharma have come to believe and accept the role of fulfilling Karma/Reincarnation as a primary vehicle to attain Moksha (liberation).What are your thoughts?

    Namaste nirotu,
    Let me say I am not for reincarnation! this is the unselected alternative to Moksha. The goal is to achieve the SELF. It is God's grace that He lets us continue our progress to this Moksha in another life.

    Krsna says, no effort is ever lost... those that perhaps have fallen short of this attainment will pick up in the next life and continue.

    So, acceptance goes with the territory, yet I do not see it as a primary vehicle for moksha, only as the opportinuty to try again.

    ...oh? Dying? its easy. I have done it a million times. (a close friend)

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 16 March 2007 at 08:36 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    namaste nirotu,

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Hi All:

    Many in Sanatana Dharma have come to believe and accept the role of fulfilling Karma/Reincarnation as a primary vehicle to attain Moksha (liberation).
    As sri yajvan has pointed out already...your statement is false.

    Isn’t there a danger of superimposition of this theory on to a real goal and purpose of creation, especially for man, which is to undertake the spiritual journey and come to know “self “ and the connection with its source?
    Isn't there a danger in assuming that the 'self' will be thrown in a fire pit if a man doesn't accept and obey the divine, especially, if the assumption is that a man gets only one life or max 130 years? Isn't there a danger in assuming that there is only chance? The one chance theory makes a man either a materialist and reject the divine or makes a man fear the divine instead of loving him or makes a salesman out of a regular man.
    satay

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    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Namaste everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Isn't there a danger in assuming that the 'self' will be thrown in a fire pit if a man doesn't accept and obey the divine, especially, if the assumption is that a man gets only one life or max 130 years? Isn't there a danger in assuming that there is only chance? The one chance theory makes a man either a materialist and reject the divine or makes a man fear the divine instead of loving him or makes a salesman out of a regular man.
    If the maximum life of a man is 130 years according to Christianity, what about the time in Hell or Heaven? What exactly happens to the soul in an eternal hell or heaven? If the soul in hell is destroyed after all its sufferings and the soul in heaven lives on eternally, then it means that Christianity does not believe that the soul is indestructible!? How can it be that some souls are indestructible and reach the heaven and some are destructible when they reach the hell? If such is the case, why should God create a destructible soul and even the hell as its caldron? If God created man after his image, can this be the case?

    Perhaps, since God had to create the universe within six days, he was in a terrible hurry, and in that hullabaloo, made a hotchpotch of his work. And the greatest irony of this Kali Yuga is that the largest religion in the world has been based on such hideous concepts and considers itself hunky-dory!

    Karma is a universal law of cause and effect, which is common to all human souls. Christianity may not accept reincarnation, but Christians as human souls do accumulate karma of both the good and bad types because no human being can be perfect. This being the case, in what way does a human soul which has not perfected itself in one life enjoy eternal heaven and another soul which has more propensity towards bad karma burn in eternal hell? What is the yardstick that decides, even among Christians, that one person goes to heaven and another to hell? And how can it be that the clergy are immune to hell whatever their faults? If they get God's grace, why should only they get it?

    With such questions the falsity and superficiality of Christian theology easily comes to the fore. It would be well-nigh impossible to attain or even discuss the goal of spiritual journey and the connection to the source remaining within the framework of such dogma.

    The universal law of karma and reincarnation is not an 'acceptance by belief' in Sanatana Dharma but an 'acceptance by discovery' by great sages who were spiritual scientists. In the absence of such a law there will be no necessity for creation at all, so where is the question of the real purpose of man's spiritual journey towards the source, realising his connection with it?

  5. #5

    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Isn’t there a danger of superimposition of this theory on to a real goal and purpose of creation, especially for man, which is to undertake the spiritual journey and come to know “self “ and the connection with its source?

    What are your thoughts?

    Blessings,

    p.s. I have posted two threads they are somewhat interconnected!
    Let us first understand that self-knowledge is a journey and not a belief ~ those who actually undertook this journey found that most beings are cought in a cycle of re-birth form which liberation is possible by completing the journey. May be it just a theory for you, but for many it is said to be real knowledge.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste everyone.

    If God created man after his image, can this be the case?
    namaste,
    I must add to this an insight and that is that if God created man in his own image then he is the biggest idoltar of us all.
    satay

  7. #7

    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    Let me say I am not for reincarnation! this is the unselected alternative to Moksha. The goal is to achieve the SELF. It is God's grace that He lets us continue our progress to this Moksha in another life.

    Krsna says, no effort is ever lost... those that perhaps have fallen short of this attainment will pick up in the next life and continue.

    So, acceptance goes with the territory, yet I do not see it as a primary vehicle for moksha, only as the opportinuty to try again.

    ...oh? Dying? its easy. I have done it a million times. (a close friend)

    pranams,
    Dear yajvan:

    Thank you for your comments. Yes, I do agree with you. The path of discovery of “self” is in itself brings us into this spiritual journey. While Karma is totally secondary, many have strengthened the reality of “karmic cycle” as the primary impetus for reaching the goal. There is no denial in the reward for efforts (good or bad) in any religion. But, those who think doing good karma alone brings about the salvation have lost the true meaning of realities of spiritual journey.

    A man can either continue to look towards and emphasize his shadow or he can simply move towards the right direction of light. The shadow is minimized or made to disappear altogether. Therefore, one can either continue to focus on realities of Karma or can undertake the spiritual journey in which these are minimized anyway.


    As you said it well, when focus is on undertaking the journey the karmic baggage gets minimized.

    Blessings,

  8. #8

    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    Isn't there a danger in assuming that the 'self' will be thrown in a fire pit if a man doesn't accept and obey the divine, especially, if the assumption is that a man gets only one life or max 130 years?
    Dear Satay:

    While I was trying my best to avoid playing each other by pitting different religions, you seem to be determined to bring it to front.

    If you are referring to the sayings of Christ Jesus, your arguments are baseless and illogical. Many among Hindus believe that “fear of Hell” has caused Christians to obey the divine. People who are clever with words use this “fear factor” as a basis for Christian obedience. How is it different than the following?

    Hinduism believes in salvation or Moksha through a morally upright living and doing good karma, (which is the basis for my OP). They want to be liberated from the cycle of birth/rebirth. The only threat to that process of liberation is reincarnation (rebirth). Therefore, fear of reincarnation is what motivates them to do good karma. What’s wrong with this logic in bringing “fear factor”?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    Isn't there a danger in assuming that there is only chance? The one chance theory makes a man either a materialist and reject the divine or makes a man fear the divine instead of loving him or makes a salesman out of a regular man.
    Long time ago, I confronted similar question from another faithful servant of God. It is worth bringing out to you.

    As Pascal (French Scientist and Philosopher) said it, “I would rather die believing in God and find out there was no God than die not believing in God and find out there indeed was a God”. Let me put my spin to it: If a Hindu belief is correct about reincarnation and a Christian finds that after death, at least he finds there indeed is another chance to correct for all his sins. If, on the other hand, a Christian belief is correct and a Hindu dies and finds out there was no more chance, which would be a safer bet?

    My friend, in my humble estimation, no one knows his past karma or the life he or she lived! Therefore, why not consider the lifetime that is given to us as an opportunity to improve ourselves along with the grace of God, not truly knowing what will happen after life?

    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    I must add to this an insight and that is that if God created man in his own image then he is the biggest idoltar of us all
    You have a very false sense of “image” as described in the Bible! No created being has seen God or lived to tell us let alone be in His splitting image! If I were an image of God, I would be in ten different places at the same time! All I know of God is, God is a spirit. If you too were to believe this, you would not extrapolate man as a creation in God’s splitting image!



    The term “image” does not mean to reflect God is “idolator”! Brahman is “absolute” and “unconditional” and no definition can comprehend Him. However, we can “apprehend” Him through “conditioned Brahman” what we call “God”. We can then associate God’s image in us (not in inanimate objects) through attributes such as “Love”, “Patience”, “mercy”, “Long suffering”, “endurance” etc, which we come to know as representing God’s character. Hence, in that sense image reflects some of God’s characters in us.

    Coming to your notion of idolatry, it seems to me that if Brahman is the “absolute”, and when we reduce Him to merely an object of worship, it is reduced to a less than the “absolute”. That is why in Islam and Christianity idolatry is forbidden!!!



    Blessings,

  9. #9

    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78
    Let us first understand that self-knowledge is a journey and not a belief ~ those who actually undertook this journey found that most beings are cought in a cycle of re-birth form which liberation is possible by completing the journey. May be it just a theory for you, but for many it is said to be real knowledge.
    Dear sm78:

    Good point, sm78. Yes, the difference between having real knowledge of journey and actually undertaking such a journey is what differentiates between knowing “turiya” in theory and taking steps to attain the same. In fact, undertaking the actual spiritual journey seems to be the only solution to man’s ignorance or fallen state. As I said earlier, the shadow is minimized only by moving in the right direction of the light. That simple move has to be made.

    Blessings,

  10. #10

    Re: Role of Karma (Prarabdha) in the context of creation.

    As Pascal (French Scientist and Philosopher) said it, “I would rather die believing in God and find out there was no God than die not believing in God and find out there indeed was a God”. Let me put my spin to it: If a Hindu belief is correct about reincarnation and a Christian finds that after death, at least he finds there indeed is another chance to correct for all his sins. If, on the other hand, a Christian belief is correct and a Hindu dies and finds out there was no more chance, which would be a safer bet?


    I apologize for interjecting in this conversation, and at this late date too! I am slowly working my way through some of the threads here, and trying to digest this one. Slow, partly for lack of enough time to devote and also I have to look up a lot of things still. Forgive my ignorance if my comments reflect it, as they surely must.

    I am not a scholar, in fact I am struggling daily to find my footing on this path of Hindu Dharma so I hesitate to comment. But I think timidity can not live in the same heart with devotion, so I strive to forgo timidity.


    Nirotu you seem to have a great amount of knowledge of many tenents of Hindu beliefs. Your understanding of many concepts and terms is better than mine. The other members who have commented already have beautifully responded to your points. I hope they will not mind my humble thoughts being added.


    I never will try to convince you that my beliefs are more correct than yours, but only clarify a misunderstanding or misconception.


    In a lot of your post, you seem to miss the real essence, or deeper meaning, or such. Sorry I am not good at explaining. Let me try again. For me, there is no question of a "safer bet" because I have chosen not to leave it to chance. Blind faith is exactly that- blind. It is as you said.. to follow the path which is the best bet, or which seems so, and it is at best a guess. It is impossible to understand Hinduism when you think of faith in this way.

    To follow the path of Hindu Dharma is to have eyes wide open and not only that, but to desire to see reality. And to order your conduct and your life according to a yogic discipline even when it is uncomfortable or painful or lonely. And doing this, in doing the right thing for no other reason than it is the right thing, you come to see that the actions that you take in everyday life are not yours but God's.

    If you have a child, do you hand him a list of rules upon his birth, then step back and see whether he will survive to adulthood when you judge him for what he has accomplished or failed to accomplish? Or on whether he has accepted you as his authority? If he, through innocence and inexperience, chooses a wrong path is he doomed?



    No, you lovingly place him in an environment that you have already prepared for him, and the safeguards and lessons you have installed will guide and enable him to safely and gently progress, step by step to obtain the knowledge he needs along the way. And you give him as many chances as he needs. He will fail and learn from the failure many times. Everything you have installed and put in place, is only to help him progress. You are wise and you know all the mistakes he could possibly make and have made provision that with each lesson learned is progress toward you. It is you who guide his actions because you have anticipated what he would need. He can choose to accept the boundaries; the rules..laws..dharma..you have put in place and have a very nice happy time in his life, or ignore and break them and suffer the consequences, then after enough consequences are suffered he begins to realize the reason he must follow a certain dharma, and it makes his life a happy one and he becomes more in harmony with you.

    There is no fear of reincarnation, also no "vehicle of.., fulfilling Karma/Reincarnation. These are simply part of the natural laws that have been put in place in preparation and anticipation of our progress through our lives.

    "Thus it is that the Vedas proclaim not a dreadful combination of unforgiving laws, not an endless prison of cause and effect, but that at the head of all these laws, in and through every particle of matter and force, stands One, "by whose command the wind blows, the fire burns, the clouds rain and death stalks upon the earth."
    And what is His nature?
    He is everywhere, the pure and formless One, the Almighty and the All-merciful. "Thou art our father, Thou art our mother, Thou art our beloved friend, Thou art the source of all strength; give us strength. Thou art He that beareth the burdens of the universe; help me bear the little burden of this life." Thus sang the Rishis of the Veda. And how to worship Him? Through love. "He is to be worshiped as the one beloved, dearer than everything in this and the next life."
    ........The Goal of Hinduism paper by Swami Vivekananda



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