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Thread: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

  1. #1
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    Post do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Namaste,

    Your views on the thread topic are most important for me

    People often confused why there are many paths for realisation. they ask are this all paths of sanatana dharma leads to absolute reality ?

    This tread is for those people.I hope it will help you.
    lets see what padma purana says.
    Generally in sanatana hindu dharma there are four main branches:
    vaishnwa , shaiva, smartism and shakti.

    Lord krishna says in padma purana -

    88th chapter called shrikrushna satyabhama sanvada adhyaya describes the conversation between shri krishna and his wife satyabhama.
    there shri krishna says:

    शैवा: सौराच्श्रगणेशावैष्णवा:शक्तिपूजका:
    मामेवप्राप्नुवंतीहवर्षांभसागरंयथा ।। 43

    Like the rain water comes from all around and finally reaches the ocean, similarly all those worshipping Shiva, Ganesh, Shakti, all finally reach me. It is me who is seen different due to my leela.

    Kaivalya Upanishad 8 - “ He (Brahman) is Brahmaa, he is Siva, he is Indra, He is the imperishable, the supreme majesty, the self-effulgent; He is Vishnu, he is prana, He is time, He is fire, He is the moon.”

    Svetasvatara Upanishad IV.17 “The gods are united in Brahman or Iswara, i.e. they are non-different from Brahman or krishna or Iswara”



    यो ब्रह्मा स हरि: प्रोक्तो यो हरि स महेश्वर: या काली,सैव कृष्ण....कालिका Yo Brahma sah hari Prokto yo hari sah maheshwarah Ya kali saiv Krishna….

    The one who is Brahmaa, that is Hari and the one who is Hari, he himself is Shiva. The one who is Kali, the same is Krishna and the one who is Krishna is kali. Those who differentiate between forms of God, can not understand me well.

    त्रयी सांख्यं योग पशुपतिमतं वैष्णवमिति प्रभिन्ने प्रस्थाने परमिदमद पथ्यमिति च रूचिनां वैचित्र्याद्यृजुकुटिलनानापथजुषां नृणामेको गम्यस्त्वमसि पयसामर्णव इव

    trayi sankhyam yogah pasupati matam vaishnavamiti prabhinne prasthane paramidamadah pathyamiti ca, rucinam vaicitryad riju kutila nana pathajusham nrinameko gamyas tvamsasi payasa marnava iva.

    Different paths (to realization) arc enjoined by the three Vedas, by Sankhya, Yoga, Pashupata (Shaiva) (doctrine and Vaishnava Shastras. People follow different paths, straight or crooked, according to their temperament, depending on which they consider best, or most appropriate--and reach You alone just as rivers enter the ocean.

    Your views are welcome


    Hari om!
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 14 September 2013 at 09:11 AM. Reason: updating verses from upanishada

  2. #2

    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Pranams,

    The above quotes, if they indeed exist (I don't know, since no verse numbers were provided so we cannot cross-examine the evidence), are likely referring to the fact that those who worship anya-devatas may eventually become qualified to worship brahman. However, it is not a fact that anya-devatas are the same as brahman, except in the vishiShtAdvaitic sense of their having brahmin as their inner controller.

    The bhagavad-gItA is very clear that one result is had by worship of anya-devatas, and another result is obtained by the worship of the Lord Himself.

    antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām |
    devān deva-yajo yānti mad-bhaktā yānti mām api || BG 7.23 ||

    yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ |
    bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā yānti mad-yājino ’pi mām || BG 9.25 ||


    I believe we can raise the standard of debate if we try to include all of the valid evidence before formulating a conclusion.

    Just FYI, if the padma purANa alone is going to become the standard of evidence in articulating the modern "all paths are same" conclusion, then you should be aware that the padma purANa also contains verses which explicitly denounce the paths of shaivism and shaktaism as baser religions invented to satisfy those who have no devotion to Hari. Now, you can say that you do not accept those verses, and I have no problem with that. But then you cannot very well quote padma purANa elsewhere to make your case, when you questioned its authority arbitrarily in the first place.


    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

  3. #3

    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Here is what the padma purANa has to say regarding the relationship of viShNu, shiva, and brahmA. This story is found in other purANa-s also with minor variations. It explicitly identifies viShNu with brahman and shiva and brahmA as being subordinate to Him. Again, it just goes to show that you cannot establish a conclusion by simply picking and choosing what you like and rejecting the rest.

    CHAPTER TWO HUNDRED FIFTYFIVE

    The Three Gods Subjected to Test by Bhrgu
    Dilipa said:
    1-6. O brahmana, you have fully told (me) about all the practices, and about the general and particular nature of the highest (lord) and the individual soul. O best brahmana, through
    curiosity I am asking you one other (question). Due to your great love (for me) properly tell (i.e. answer) that also. Rudra, the destroyer of Tripura, is the best among the great devotees of Visnu. Due to what did he, along with his wife, have a con- demned form? How did the very illustrious one have the form of clitoris? O best brahmana, how did the five-faced one, four-arm- ed one, trident-holder and three-eyed one have a condemned
    form? O son of Mitra-Varuna, tell all this (to me).
    Vasisthasaid:
    7-13. O king, listen; I shall explain to you what you have asked me respectfully. In the pure hearts of men a thought for bliss is produced. Formerly on the best mountain Mandara Svayambhuva Manu performed, along with sages, an excellent prolonged sacrificial session. There came all sages who had ful- filled their vows, who were proficient in various holy texts, whose lustre was like that of the young sun and fire, who, the brahma- nas, were well-versed in all Vedas, and who had mastered all religious practices. When the great sacrificial session took place, the sages whose sins had been exhausted, and who had penance as their wealth, spoke among themselves in order to find the truth about the deity. Which excellent deity should be honoured by brahmanas proficient in the Vedas? Who, out of Brahma, Visnu
    and Siva, being praised, gives salvation to men? Water of (i.e. flowing from) whose feet should be resorted to? So also the puri- fyingremnant of whose food should be enjoyed? Who, the immu- table one, is the highest abode, the highest soul and who is eternal? Whose favour and holy place would gratify the manes?
    14-20. Such a great discussion took place among those who were seated. Some great sages said: "Rudra alone (is the greatest deity)." Other best sages said: "Brahmaalone is fit to be wor- shipped." Other best one said that the Sun alone was fit to be worshipped among the souls. Other brahmanas said: "The immu- table lotus-eyed Vasudeva, the highest one, the one without a beginning or an end (viz.) Visnu alone is the highest lord. He, the best among the deities, deserves to be worshipped." To them, who were discussing, Svayambhuva Manu said: "He, the lord,
    who is fullofgoodnature,whohasauspiciousqualities,whois lotus-eyed, who is glorious, who is the lord of Laksmi, who is the highest Brahman, is the only lord adored by brahmanas, proficient in Vedas. Others mixed with passion and vice are not fit to be worshipped." Having heard these words of him, all the great sages, joining the palms of their hands, said to the brah- mana, Bhrgu, the treasure of penance :
    The sages said:
    21-25. O you of a good vow, you are able to remove our doubt. Approach, O you of a good vow, Brahma, Visnu and Mahesa. O sage, go near them and observe their bodies. Out of them, he who possesses the pure sattvaguna, is alone fit to be worshipped, and never anyone else. He, full of pure sattva, will be friendly to brahmanas. To brahmanas he will be a holy place and a favour. Even to deities and manes the remnants of his food will be purifying. Therefore, O best sage, go to the residence of gods. O lord, O best sage, quickly bring about the welfare of all people.
    26-27. Thus addressed, the best sage, along with Vamadeva, quickly went to Kailasa where the bull-bannered (god) lived. Having gone near the door of the house of the magnanimous
    Sankara and seeing very fierce Nandin with a spear in his hand, he said (to him):
    28-34. "I, the brahmana Bhrgu, have come to see Hara, the
    best god. Quickly announce me (i.e. my arrival) to the magnani- mous Sankara." Hearing the words of him, Nandin, the lord of (Siva's) attendants spoke harsh words to the great sage of an un- limited splendour: "The lord is not in the vicinity. Sankara is sporting with goddess (Parvati). O best sage, go back if you desire to live." Thus repudiated by him the (sage) of a great penanceremainedthere,atthedoorofthegreatlord, for many days. "Since he, arrogant due to the company of a woman, thinks lightly of me, he shall have the form of clitoris. Ap- proached (i.e. overcome) by vice he slights me, a brahmana! Reduced to an impious state, he will not be adored by brahma- nas. Therefore, all the food, water, flowers and oblations offered to him will undoubtedly be useless."
    35-40. The very lustrous one, having thus cursed Samkara honoured by the world, said to the very fierce attendant, Nan- din, holding a spear, O king: "May Siva's devotees, having ash, phallus and bones be impious and out of the Vedic fold." The sage, having thus cursed Rudra, Tripura's killer, went to Brah- ma's world, respected by all people. The very intelligent one, having seen Brahma, saluted him by joining the palms of his hands. The great ascetic, having saluted him, remained silent before him. Seeing the best sage, Brahma, possessed of an abundance of rajas did not honour him, the great sage that had approached him. He also did not rise to honour him, nor did he speak pleasing words.
    41-45. The lotus-seated (Brahma) remained there with great majesty. Seeing him with preponderance of rajas, the great sage, the grandsire of all worlds, who was very lustrous, said (these) words to Brahman: "Since you, having preponderance of rajas, are slighting me, therefore, be dishonoured by all people." Bhrgu, the brahmana, having thus cursed the magnanimous Brahma, respected by the world, suddenly went to Vismi's resi- dence. The brahmana, having entered Visnu's world on the northern coast of the Milky Ocean, and being properly honour- ed there by the glorious ones remaining there, and not being stopped there, entered the inner apartment.
    46-52. Having entered that spotless palace, resembling the sun, he saw Laksnri's lord lying on the bed of the serpent. Both his feet were being rubbed by the lotus-like hands of Laksmi.
    Seeing him, the best sage Bhrgu, full of anger kicked with his left foot Visnu's chest. The lord, getting up quickly, and gladly saying, "I am fortunate", joyfully pressed his foot with his hands. Slowly stroking his feet he spoke (these) sweet words: "O brahmana-sage, I am fortunate. I am always blessed. Due to the contact of your foot, there will be propitiousness in my body. May the dust-particles from the foot of a brah- mana, which are the cause of the acquisition of affluence, which are the comets to the host of calamities that have come up, which are bridges over the boundless ocean of the mundane existence, purify me. All the holy places like Ganga etc. undoubtedly re- main in the body of him, on whose body dust-particles from a
    brahmana's foot always remain."
    53-54. Saying so and quickly getting up with goddess
    (LaksmI), Visnu devoutly honoured him with divine garlands, sandal etc. Having seen him, the best sage, with his eyes full of tears of joy, got from the best seat, and saluted that treasure of compassion. The great ascetic, having joined the palms of his hands, gladly said:
    Sri Bhrgu said:
    55-64. Oh, what a (handsome) form! Oh, (great) tranquillity! Oh, (great) knowledge! Oh, (great) pity! Oh, his patience is spot- less! Oh, the goodness of Visnu! Similarly the ocean of virtues has natural, auspicious, goodness. It is not at all present in all other gods. You alone are hospitable to the brahmanas. You alone are the protector. You alone are the highest Brahman. You alone are the lord of brahmanas. No other god is respectable. O Purusottama, those who worship any other god than you, have become impious, and are censured by all the world. You, Janar- dana, are alone fit to be worshipped by brahmanas, well-versed in the Vedas. None else among the gods is ever venerable. Brahma, Rudra and others, mixed with rajas and tamas are not fit to be worshipped. You, having pure sattva, are fit to be worshipped by brahmanas. The water (flowing) from your feet should be resorted to by manes, gods, and all brahmanas. It gives salvation, and destroys sins. Manes, gods, brahmanas should take what is left over after you have eaten, and not what is left ver after others have eaten. The food, flowers, so also water of
    i.e. offered to) other gods, would all be unfit to be touched. It is useless like liquor. Therefore, a wise brahmana should constant- ly worship you, the eternal one, everyday and should take water of (i.e. sanctified by) you and food eaten by you.
    65-68. A brahmana should not see another god; should not worship him. He should not partake of another god's favour; should not enter the sanctuary of any other (god). (If) a man does not give in this world the food and holy water enjoyed by you in the rite of sraddha offered to his ancestors, all that would be fruitless. His dead ancestors fall into (and live in) the hell of pus and blood for thousands of crores of kalpas and hun- dreds of crores of kalpas. O master, when one offers an oblation (into fire) or gives (offerings) to deities and manes after offering them to you, there is satisfaction (of deities and manes), (i.e. he satisfies them) and he gets immortality.
    69-78a. Therefore, you alone are adorable to gods, and none else. He who, through folly, would worship other (deities) will be impious. You are Narayana; you are glorious; you are the ancient Vasudeva. You are omnipresent Visnu. You are eter-
    nal, highest soul and the great god. You alone are fit to be worshipped by brahmanas. You are hospitable to brahma- nas. You possess pure sattva. Due to your being venerable to brahmanas and due to your virtue of having pure sattva, obtain the status of a brahmana among all the gods themselves; for all brahmanas will resort to you, the highest Brahman, alone. They were brahmanas and not others. There is no doubt about this. Devaki's son is holy. Madhusudana is holy. The lotus-eyed one is holy. Visnu, Acyuta is holy. Lord Krsna is holy. Vasu- deva, Acyuta, Hari (is holy). Narasimha is holy. So also is the immutable Narayana. !rldhara, Srisa, Govinda, Vamana is holy. The Yajnavaraha, Kesava, Purusottama is holy. Glorious, lotus- eyed Rama, descendant of Raghu, is holy. Padmanabha is holy. So also Damodara, the lord, Madhava, Yajfia, lord Trivikrama is holy. Hrsikesa is holy; Janardana, wearing yellow garments (is holy).
    78b-87. Salutation to the holy god, to Vasudeva, holder of the Sarnga (bow); (Salutation) to Narayana, 3risa, having lotus- like eyes. Salutation to the holy god, Vasudeva, Visnu. Saluta- tion to the highest god full of auspicious qualities. Salutation to
    the holy god, of the form of all gods. Salutation to you having the body of the Boar. Salutation to you, the lord of the triad (of the Vedas). Salutation to the holy god, lying on the bed of the serpent. Repeated salutations to Raghava having eyes like lotus- petals. O lord, all gods and sages, deluded by Maya, do not know you, the lord of all worlds and a great soul. O revered one, even all those proficient in the Vedas do not know you by your name, form and qualities and your acts difficult to be performed. I, capable of knowing your sattva, suggesting your superiority,
    have been sent by the great sages; (and therefore) I have approached you. O Kesava, in order to know your character and qualities, I put my foot on your chest. O Govinda, O treasure of pity, forgive it.
    Speaking like this, and repeatedly saluting Visnu, and being honoured there by the divine, magnanimous, great sages, Bhrgu, with his mind delighted, again went to the place of sacrifice hav- ing an auspicious name.
    88-93. The great sages, having seen the magnanimous one to have come back, rose, saluted him, and duly worshipped him. The best sage told them all that: "O best sages, Brahma and Siva, the best sages have preponderance of the qualities of rajas and tamas. They were cursed by me. They are not fit to be wor- shipped by brahmanas. Sarhkara enveloped by tamas was cursed by me on the peak of Kailasa. Visnu full of pure sattva is the ocean of auspicious qualities. Narayana is the highest Brahman. (He i.e.) Visnu is the deity of brahmanas. Sripati, Visnu, Vasudeva, Janardana is holy. Govinda, Hari, Acyuta of lotus-like eyes is holy. O best men, he alone is fit to be worshipped by brahmanas, and none else.
    94-97. He who, through folly, would worship another (god) will be impious. Even sinners get salvation just by remembering Krsna. The water (flowing) from his feet should be taken. The remnants of the food (offered to) him are purifying. It gives heaven and salvation to men, especially to brahmanas. (A man) should everyday offer an oblation which is (first) offered to Visnu, to the gods. He should also offer it to his dead ancestors. (Then) he gets complete immortality. O brahmanas, the dead ancestors of him who does not offer (food) enjoyed by Visnu, to them at a sraddha-rite, always eat (and drink) feces and urine.
    98-101. Therefore, brahmanas should always eat the rem- nants of the food offered to Visnu. The remnants (of food offer- ed to other gods) are useless and (therefore) condemned. A brahmana, weak in knowledge, who even once eats the remnants of food etc. offered to Sankara etc., would certainly be a candala. For thousands of crores of kalpas he is roasted in the fire in hell. O best brahmanas, the remnants of offerings to gods like Rudra, are said to be equal to food offered to demons, yaksas, goblins and like liquor and flesh. Brahmanas should not eat that food, the offering enjoyed by (these) gods.
    102. Therefore, O best brahmanas, leaving another god, worship diligently, till you live, the ancient Visnu only.
    103-109. With your doubts removed, endowed with the five purifications like imprinting the body with heated marks, with good hearts, looking upon that as the highest abode of Visnu, properly worship that extraordinary Visnu, O best brahmanas. The brahmanas marked with the disc(-impression) are good and extraordinary. Those without the disc-marks are said to be ordinary and vicious.Therefore,a man should have the heated marks of a disc and a conch at the roots of his arms, which (marks) of (i.e. sac- red to) Visnu burn the stream of sins due to contact with ordinary persons. Having had the upright sectarian marks on the body according to the manner prescribed in the holy texts, he should worship Visnu according to the rules with the gem of the hymn (viz. Visnu-sahasranama). Being diligent he should also partake of the remnants of food offered to him. He should always worship gods at the time of finishing his worship. O brahmanas, knowing him to be the highest lord enjoying all sacrifices, one should always offer (oblations into fire), give (presents to him) and mutter (his names)."
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Namaste Hinduism(luv)Krishna.

    There will be extremists, unorthodox sectarians who live a fixation on insulting and telling other Hindus which Devas or Devi is subordinate to another. Quoting scriptures back and forth is a waste of time with them, there are countless scriptures where quotes can be made to give a sympathetic view from a limited sectarian identity that spends too much time on translations or interpretations pitting one against another, actually they are so fixated they insult pure devotees which includes Devatas. Proclaim the glory of your Lord. Love and respect your Family members of Hinduism. Do not waste your time in "subordinate" battles with them. There are saints who were and are the very embodiment of Brahman, in Kashi for example there was a devotee of Kali as such. And visa versa great devotees of Krishna living the embodiment of Brahman. If your Lord is Krishna, go to Him, if you seek Brahman you will surely find Thus. As far as the faceless debate of division, just ignore it. If it becomes the only sounding board, ignore all of it.

    Om Namah Sivaya

  5. #5

    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    We Hindus respect all belief systems(*). It's important that we able to talk about our respective beliefs freely, without fear of ad hominem attacks. Fortunately, that never happens here on HDF. I'm sure that guests to these forums are tremendously impressed with the degree of mutual respect and tolerance that are repeatedly demonstrated here.

    (*) Except for belief systems that involve one deity being superior to another. Those are extremist and sectarian, and we want nothing to do with those!
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Arrow Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Pranams,

    The above quotes, if they indeed exist (I don't know, since no verse numbers were provided so we cannot cross-examine the evidence), are likely referring to the fact that those who worship anya-devatas may eventually become qualified to worship brahman. However, it is not a fact that anya-devatas are the same as brahman, except in the vishiShtAdvaitic sense of their having brahmin as their inner controller.

    The bhagavad-gItA is very clear that one result is had by worship of anya-devatas, and another result is obtained by the worship of the Lord Himself.

    antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām |
    devān deva-yajo yānti mad-bhaktā yānti mām api || BG 7.23 ||

    yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ |
    bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā yānti mad-yājino ’pi mām || BG 9.25 ||


    I believe we can raise the standard of debate if we try to include all of the valid evidence before formulating a conclusion.

    Just FYI, if the padma purANa alone is going to become the standard of evidence in articulating the modern "all paths are same" conclusion, then you should be aware that the padma purANa also contains verses which explicitly denounce the paths of shaivism and shaktaism as baser religions invented to satisfy those who have no devotion to Hari. Now, you can say that you do not accept those verses, and I have no problem with that. But then you cannot very well quote padma purANa elsewhere to make your case, when you questioned its authority arbitrarily in the first place.


    regards,
    shri hari hari

    so you want verse no. here it is.
    I'm devotee of bramhan ( krishna) . krishna is the absolute bramhan beyond the concept of existence and nonexistence. so what krishna says i believe it as a supreme truth.

    the verse is described in 88th chapter of uttarkhand of padma purana and the verse no. is 43.

    88th chapter called shrikrushna satyabhama sanvada adhyaya describes the conversation between shri krishna and his wife satyabhama.
    there shri krishna says:

    शैवा: सौराच्श्रगणेशावैष्णवा:शक्तिपूजका:
    मामेवप्राप्नुवंतीहवर्षांभसागरंयथा ।। 43

    Like the rain water comes from all around and finally reaches the ocean, similarly all those worshipping Shiva, Ganesh, Shakti, all finally reach me. It is me who is seen different due to my leela.

    i want to tell u that padma purana is not ordinary purana.it is one of the major of 18 puranas. it is written in purely satvik mode. and also it describes about ram and krishna. so it is as good as bhagavat mahapurana. both bhagavat purana and padma purana are in satvik guna.

    vedas are the supreme truth. from vedas all puranas are derived. vedas itself says different paths of self realisation and says all paths will go towards supreme truth.
    vedas are constructed for all people with different satvik rajasik tamsik gunas ruling on their body. For different people vedas instructs different paths to go towards final truth. but only condition is we have to worship shiva, ganesha without any material desireness.

    shri hari ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय ।।
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 14 September 2013 at 09:14 AM.

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    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    How do different ways lead to the same point of Mokhsa ? I believe the TRUTH is supposed to be the Moksha. That was the intention - Is it correct ?

    Otherwise the Truths are different for different people and you can see that in the different opinions already in place.

    But when you say Mokhsa then there is a single TRUTH. TRUTH is one but the wise people say in different ways - which the laymen feel are different true paths and fight amongst each other.

    However if we go to the basics, the picture will be more clear. The condition at which the subtle body (mind) merges with the consciousness is the attainment of mokhsa. The mind thoughtless and vibrationless is that state. To attain that state requires lots of spiritual knowledge and assimilation of that. To have this one requires both bhakti and karma to shed the ego and desires. This shedding will be automatic when a person achieves highest level of knowledge (this is generally acquired in steps) - where his desire stops and thus become egoless.

    The egoless and desireless mind is best suited to attain that thoughtless and vibrationless state. That state is beyond karma, beyond bhakti and beyond knowledge. And that is out of the TRUTH.

    Now to achieve this through the different DNAs of people cannot be through one stringent rule. There can be best practices but agian there are varieties of those suiting to different people, environment, culture, etc.

    Thus Bhakti, Karma, Knowledge being the broad guidelines, the microlevels are highly varied.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Thumbs Down Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    How do different ways lead to the same point of Mokhsa ? I believe the TRUTH is supposed to be the Moksha. That was the intention - Is it correct ?

    Otherwise the Truths are different for different people and you can see that in the different opinions already in place.

    But when you say Mokhsa then there is a single TRUTH. TRUTH is one but the wise people say in different ways - which the laymen feel are different true paths and fight amongst each other.

    However if we go to the basics, the picture will be more clear. The condition at which the subtle body (mind) merges with the consciousness is the attainment of mokhsa. The mind thoughtless and vibrationless is that state. To attain that state requires lots of spiritual knowledge and assimilation of that. To have this one requires both bhakti and karma to shed the ego and desires. This shedding will be automatic when a person achieves highest level of knowledge (this is generally acquired in steps) - where his desire stops and thus become egoless.

    The egoless and desireless mind is best suited to attain that thoughtless and vibrationless state. That state is beyond karma, beyond bhakti and beyond knowledge. And that is out of the TRUTH.

    Now to achieve this through the different DNAs of people cannot be through one stringent rule. There can be best practices but agian there are varieties of those suiting to different people, environment, culture, etc.

    Thus Bhakti, Karma, Knowledge being the broad guidelines, the microlevels are highly varied.
    namaste. shri hari.

    read my previous post. Read what lord krishna says about different paths.
    challenging my view is challenging lord Krishna's words.Because i have written what lord krishna says.
    Bhagavag gita accepts different paths.All puranas accept different paths.Entire vedas accept different paths.Even absolute Truth lord krishna accepts different paths.
    If truth itself accepts different paths then what is the value of your words?

    shri hari govinda! !!

  9. #9
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    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    namaste. shri hari.

    read my previous post. Read what lord krishna says about different paths.
    challenging my view is challenging lord Krishna's words.Because i have written what lord krishna says.
    Bhagavag gita accepts different paths.All puranas accept different paths.Entire vedas accept different paths.Even absolute Truth lord krishna accepts different paths.
    If truth itself accepts different paths then what is the value of your words?

    shri hari govinda! !!

    Namate hinduism♥krishna,
    No where it's mentioned that everyone has to accept Krsna's words and even in Gita Krsna leaves a choice to Arjuna to decide on what to do whether to believe him or not. So it's totally acceptable for mortals like kallol and me to question everything.

    kallol - Truths could be many for example different kinds of yoga - Karma, Jnana etc., But what Krsna says is the absolute truth is one which is Brahman according to some schools and God according to others. Whichever path one follows if it's right and proper will lead to the Ultimate Truth.
    ॐ महेश्वराय नमः

    || Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya ||

    Hara Hara Mahadeva Shambo Shankara

  10. #10

    Re: do different paths of self realization go towards absolute truth?

    Pranams hinduism-krishna. Jai Sri Krishna!

    Please note, before this thread degenerates into another HDF free-for-all, that I am taking issue not with your conclusions, but with the soundness of the reasoning by which you arrive at them. Certainly you may feel free to believe in "all gods are one" philosophy, but you should consider the tenuous basis for this viewpoint, especially as you started off stating that you were articulating "sanatana hindu dharma" and/or "hindu vedic dharma."

    The trouble is, you did not quote the veda at all, but only purANa-s. In fact, you did not quote the purANa-s, but only one specific purANa. Even that purANa, you clearly did not read in its entirety, but merely perused for a few quotes that appeared at first glance to support your personal opinion. Even those quotes which you extracted, you took out of context. And then you simply ignored all evidence which contradicted your conclusion, both within that same purANa and from other shAstra-s of greater authority, like bhagavad-gItA.

    (1) The first point is that there is no such thing as an all-encompasing "Hinduism" which endorses "all paths of sanatana dharma leads to absolute reality." The term "Hinduism" is not even Vedic in origin, and its historical usage encompasses a variety of Vedic and non-Vedic doctrines. Intellectual honesty requires us to acknowledge the fact that these are distinct traditions with varying levels of basis in veda, and not equally valid paths as per the authority of the veda.

    (2) Now, by "Hinduism" or "Hindu Vedic dharma," you may have been referring to the conclusions of the veda-s, which do encompass multiple paths but endorse a singular conclusion about the nature of the Absolute - in other words, vedAnta. Well, there have been many great vedAnta scholars over the centuries, all with greater command of shAstra than you or I, and none of them to the best of my knowledge subscribe to "all gods are one" philosophy. The association of panchopAsana doctrine with Adi shankara is controversial, and his writings in gItA bhAShya and brahma-sUtra-bhAShya clearly acknowledge a difference between shrI hari and anya-devatas.

    (3) The authority of the purANa-s is dependent on their not contradicting veda-s. This has been accepted by all vedAnta schools, and thus it is disingenuous to extract a few select verses out of one purANa as being somehow representative of "sanAtana-dharma," what to speak of the broader category of "Hinduism."

    (4) Yes, the padma purANa is considered sAttvik, but this has nothing to do with how well preserved it is. Even sAttvik purANa-s have suffered interpolation over the years, and padma purANa is one of the worst in this regard. Unlike the viShNu and bhAgavata purANa-s, which have been commented on and thus are better preserved, the padma purANa has no such distinction.

    (5) Apropo to #4, I quoted to you the 255th chapter of the uttara-kANDa which clearly establishes the supremacy of viShNu over shiva and brahmA, and you simply ignored it. Again, you can argue that this is interpolated if you want, but without a universal standard to determine right knowledge (as in, something other than your personal bias), you have no objective basis by which to determine which shlokas are right and which are not.

    (6) Again, gItA clearly indicates that a different result is obtained by worship of anya-devatas than is obtained by worship of brahman. As you said, these are the supreme brahman's words. Not only does Lord Krishna Himself say this but it is also stated in shruti: anyad evāhuḥ sambhavād anyad āhur asambhavāt iti śuśruma dhīrāṇāṁ ye nas tad vicacakṣire (IshopaniShad 13). There is no way around it, as far as the prasthAna-trayi are concerned: to reach the Supreme, one must worship the Supreme!

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    so you want verse no. here it is.
    I'm devotee of bramhan ( krishna) . krishna is the absolute bramhan beyond the concept of existence and nonexistence. so what krishna says i believe it as a supreme truth.
    But you don't believe what He said in gItA 7.23 and 9.25. Please explain the double standard.

    How do you know that the 88th chapter of the padma purANa isn't interpolated?

    if u saying padma purANa also contains verses which explicitly denounce the paths of shaivism and shaktaism as baser religions invented to satisfy those who have no devotion to Hari is actually written in purana
    HK, the padma purANa, uttara-kANDa, 255th chapter explicitly states that only viShNu aka nArAyaNa has all the virtues of goodness, that no other god is as venerable as He, that those who worship other gods have become impious, that viShNu alone is fit to be worshiped by the brahmins, that brahmA and rudra being afflicted by the guNa-s are not fit to be worshiped, that only offerings made to viShNu are fit to be consumed while offerings made to other gods are useless as liquor. Now, you say that padma purANa is a sAttvik purANa and that therefore, everything stated within it should be believed. But these are not my words - they come directly from the purANa itself:

    55-64. Oh, what a (handsome) form! Oh, (great) tranquillity! Oh, (great) knowledge! Oh, (great) pity! Oh, his patience is spotless! Oh, the goodness of Visnu! Similarly the ocean of virtues has natural, auspicious, goodness. It is not at all present in all other gods. You alone are hospitable to the brahmanas. You alone are the protector. You alone are the highest Brahman. You alone are the lord of brahmanas. No other god is respectable. O Purusottama, those who worship any other god than you, have become impious, and are censured by all the world. You, Janardana, are alone fit to be worshiped by brahmanas, well-versed in the Vedas. None else among the gods is ever venerable. Brahma, Rudra and others, mixed with rajas and tamas are not fit to be worshipped. You, having pure sattva, are fit to be worshiped by brahmanas. The water (flowing) from your feet should be resorted to by manes, gods, and all brahmanas. It gives salvation, and destroys sins. Manes, gods, brahmanas should take what is left over after you have eaten, and not what is left over after others have eaten. The food, flowers, so also water of (i.e. offered to) other gods, would all be unfit to be touched. It is useless like liquor. Therefore, a wise brahmana should constantly worship you, the eternal one, everyday and should take water of (i.e. sanctified by) you and food eaten by you.

    So, do you believe this? Why or why not?

    then i will say lord krishna is so merciful that he wishes that followers of shiva ganesh should also reach at my form.
    Well, why stop there? Is Krishna not merciful enough to to make sure worshipers of Indra and other devas also reach Him? After all, according to the chapter you quoted, He fought with Indra to remove the pArijAta tree from heaven. And what to speak of Vedic deities, why is He not merciful enough to deliver devotees of non-Vedic gods, like Allah and Jehova? And what about the atheists? Maybe there are atheists who don't believe in Krishna or any God, but still live moral lives. Will Krishna not deliver them also? Why or why not?

    You see, this is an example of the kind of slippery slope you find yourself on when you ignore the majority of shAstra and create a philosophy based on a few interpolated verses.

    i want to tell u that padma purana is not ordinary purana.it is one of the major of 18 puranas. it is written in purely satvik mode. and also it describes about ram and krishna. so it is as good as bhagavat mahapurana.
    Actually, the padma purANa does not agree with you there - it says that the bhAgavata purANa is the best of all purANa-s:

    purANeShu tu sarveShu shrImad-bhAgavataM param || uttarak-khANDa 193.3 ||

    The same statement about the bhAgavatam's position is found in garuDa purANa 3.1.43-45, garuDa purANa 3.1.64, and bhAgavata purANa 12.13.16-17.

    The bottom line is that there is no single, uniform conclusion that can be derived from all of the purANa-s as we have them today. Shaivite purANa-s elevate shiva as the supreme among deities, and shakta purANa's (i.e. devI-bhAgavata) do the same for shakti. And so on for Vishnu. There is no way to assert that they all endorse each others' "paths" when they actually do quite the opposite!

    regards,
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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