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Thread: Canines of Interest

  1. #1
    Jigar Guest

    Canines of Interest

    Namaste,
    If we believe that we are a divine creation, there must be reasons for particular parts of our body. I would like to make an example of our canine teeth. In mammals, canines are single rooted teeth adapted for tearing food. Is it agreeable that these teeth are meant for tearing into meat and not only plants and vegetable which could have been torn by less sharp inscissors? So why would one say that eating another animal is not natural for us or shouldnt be allowed?

    Maste nam,
    Jigar

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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste Yogacara's ( practitioners of yoga)

    Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"

    There has been several discussions about the consumption of meat. Many ponder what to do. I do not have your answer but wanted to suggest that meat eating is more about Yama and Niyama , then how you "feel" or what your meditations are like e.g. how the food stuffs change your mental state.
    Patanjali-ji laid out the various limbs of raja-yoga and Yama ( from yam, to restrain) is part of it. As you folks already know its made up of:
    Ahimsa - or non-injury
    Satya - Truth
    Asteya - non-stealing
    Brahmacharya - continence some say celibacy - but the consideration of sukrya and ojas
    Aparigraha - or keeping your mitts off of others property!

    When one chooses not to eat meat( fish, fowl, eggs, etc) it’s a action of Ahimsa, or non-injury. There always comes the rebuttal of non-injury of plants/vegetables, etc. Yes, this could be made. Yet the way the system works, with every fruit and veggie provided on this earth, it comes with a replenishing system - seeds to grow 10X to 100X the fruit or veggie or grain consumed. Nature is intelligent and designed accordingly.

    To me and where I am at in my progress its based upon the least amount of non-injury possible to the world around me. This has as much to do with ahimsa as it does with karma.

    Now, additional conversations can be had regarding ones meditative experiences based upon the food stuffs consumed. Many a Vaishnava and Saivite avoid meat AND garlic + caffeine + carrots + alcohol + onions, etc . They are seen as dulling the system i.e. tamasic in nature. I am not promoting any dietary approach to members here. Just giving you a POV on how others think their spiritual progress may be influenced or supported.

    Over time actions in accord with the right thing to do become innate in ones behavior. In the interim, we need to choose what makes sense to do. This "sense" grows from what is right for me, then to my community, then my nation, my world, etc.
    Finally stewardship at the cosmic level comes with enlightenment.


    "All man’s miseries derive from not being able to sit quietly in a room alone " Pascal (the French mathematician)

    pranams,

    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Namaste Seekers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jigar
    So why would one say that eating another animal is not natural for us or shouldnt be allowed?
    Nature comprises the Mineral, Vegetable, Animal and Human kingdoms in the physical world. In size also, (I think) the order is Mineral > Vegetable > Animal > Human. The five elements of nature are part of the Mineral kingdom.

    When we talk about consumption for physical growth, vegetables consume only minerals. Animals consume vegetables only partially, and only air and water from the minerals. It is man who recklessly devours and consumes everything for physical growth, sustenance and comfort.

    Against such human consumption, the rate of regeneration is the most for vegetables, then for animals (mostly conditioned by man) and woefully less for the minerals (the natural resources as well as the elements of nature).

    Is this what God created man for? Just because man discovered agriculture later to hunting, he has acquired the habit of flesh eating and has been justifying it ever since, though he is not physiologically made for flesh food.

    If God made man in His image, then whatever man has been doing throughout this Kali Yuga for his physical advancement is far from being natural.

  4. #4
    Jigar Guest

    Re: Canines of Interest

    namaste Yajvan,
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Namaste Yogacara's ( practitioners of yoga)

    Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"

    e.g. how the food stuffs change your mental state.

    To me and where I am at in my progress its based upon the least amount of non-injury possible to the world around me. This has as much to do with ahimsa as it does with karma.

    pranams,
    Ghandi also said when once asked what he thought about western civilization. His response was: "I think it would be a good idea." LOL. slightly mocking you, sorry.

    I have a parrot in India. My aunt wouldnt let me feed it any kind of meat because she said it would go mentally crazy. It bites for it. Never seen any evidence of this though. I've never heard of a mental comparsion between a vegetarian and a Non-vegetarian. Thinking, one might enjoy the killing of a animals.

    Most animals in the US are cultivated to consume. Most everything from chickens to cows to aligators. So what harm is this God-like karma action of my doing to harm the environment? India has also chicken farms nowadays. Even if it is from real animals, we have limited our restrictions as to what animals we will eat, preserving the enivronment. And I agree it is outside those limits that are profound.

    Maste Nam,
    Jigar

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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    Dear fellow HDF members, please let me rant for just one paragraph or two. This is not aimed at any one, just at a level of thinking or rationalzing that killing is ok.

    Animals, they do suffer. Cow's, birds, fish, men and women suffer, why would one think its ok? Has anyone lost a loved one? Has anyone lost a pet that became part of the family? They no longer are just an animal, but part of an extended family. How is it different that a cow and calf do not have a relationship? An elephant ands is calf, bird and its chicks?
    Because we cannot perceive it? Are we on this planet to squander and take what we like? ( tusks, ribs of food, horns of elk, hides, etc)

    People hunt for sport, how can one think it's ok? Killing as a sport? How can one rationalize this? We are providing a service? The consequence for this killing and eating death is illness to human-kind. Take note that the most money spent in the USA is on heathcare. Not $$ Billions, but $$ Trillions, world wide. Every kind of problem, dis-ease, size shape, hurt, you can come up with.

    I just do not get it... no one ( no one) can convince me in a logical argument that it's ok.. no matter if our teeth have fangs, we have claws, or our left over behaviors from 10million BC, we have clubs and hit each other over the head, and its a part of our DNA, etc. that is not the behaviour of a divine being. ' I must be more divine then the cow so I will eat the cow' - nonsense. "In India they eat meat, they eat chickens they eat...." who said Ignorance is only available in the USA? in Europe?

    My recommendation - you can eat what you kill... now how do you think a 'happy meal' at McDonalds would be welcomed by a 8 yr old? Or liver pate, or baby veal (called bob veal), 2–3 days to 1 month of age, then slaughtered. Have your guests at a dinner party, go into the kitchen and butcher the veal in their evening gowns and tuxedo's then return to the dining room to eat the remains of their actions....

    We are removed from our actions... "I buy the burger, it didn't hurt me, and I am on the way." Welcome to Kali Yuga.

    that is my rant...
    Last edited by yajvan; 18 March 2007 at 10:04 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6

    Re: Canines of Interest

    Namaste Yajvan,

    I also agree with you. I am from Bengal region where partly driven by nature (most of earlier bengal/now bangladesh food from water sources is a need) but also by relentless changes and social trauma the region has faced, most people incl dwijas are non-vegetarians. I have now given up my environment induced habits. When vegetables are in abound to feed us, it makes no sense what so ever to have an animal killed for feeding the stomach. The Buddhistic argument, where it is OK to eat meat if you were not involved in its death process (directly or indirectly) is funny at the best ~ like many things its a sort of rationalization one should avoid in all thoughts.

    However, in this Kali Yuga many more serious things are going astray than food habits.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  7. #7

    Re: Canines of Interest

    My understanding of Buddha Dharma (and I am no expert) is not that exceptions to the prohibition of eating meat are simple loopholes to be exploited for personal pleasure, but rather that they exist for situations when compassion and gratitude would make refusal of an offering a graver wrong than consuming the already-killed and prepared meat.

    In Sanatana Dharma, is the primary motivation generation of good karma for self, generation of good karma for all beings, avoidance of bad karma for self, avoidance of bad karma for all beings, some combination of these, all of the above, or none of the above?

    Siddhhartha Gautama said, "If you truly loved yourself you would never harm another." Is this very different from Hindu perspective? I would love to know others' ideas on this.

    Respectfully,
    Shoshin

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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Namaste Shoshin,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoshin View Post
    In Sanatana Dharma, is the primary motivation generation of good karma for self, generation of good karma for all beings, avoidance of bad karma for self, avoidance of bad karma for all beings, some combination of these, all of the above, or none of the above?
    I would say probably all of the above. It doesn't matter if you killed the animal yourself or had it killed for you, one still incurs the karma through the act of killing.

    Siddhhartha Gautama said, "If you truly loved yourself you would never harm another." Is this very different from Hindu perspective? I would love to know others' ideas on this.
    Yes, one could say this too. Love of the self, doesn't just mean love for own's own self, but seeing the self in all beings also as one's own self.

    Hope that helps .

    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Namaste.

    Flesh-food is consumed for the first class protein it gives. This type of protein is supposed to be present only in the soybean in the vegetable class of eatables. With such technological advancements, I wonder why can't we have synthesised food made of vegetarian and probably chemical ingredients that are rich in first class protein so man can avoid flesh-food altogether. Sci-fi novels talk about food prescriptions in the form of tablets. Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre's novel The Fifth Horseman talks about protein sticks stored in nuclear-bomb-safe bunks and tunnels that are supposed to have been built by the U.S. administration. Why shouldn't food scientists venture to make first class synthesised protein that could avoid the ill effects of the flesh-food.

    However, tehnology has brought organized animal farming to man's doorsteps. Whether man has canine teeth to devour flesh-food or not, he has the animal instinct to hunt, only the scene has shifted from the jungles to posh domestic farms. Perhaps tomorrow we will have robots doing the job of the butcher.
    Last edited by saidevo; 22 March 2007 at 10:15 AM.

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    Re: Canines of Interest

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste.

    However, tehnology has brought organized animal farming to man's doorsteps. Whether man has canine teeth to devour flesh-food or not, he has the animal instinct to hunt, only the scene has shifted from the jungles to posh domestic farms. Perhaps tomorrow we will have robots doing the job of the butcher.
    Namaste saidevo,
    thank you for the post.... what you say is true. On the 'organized animal farming' this is needed for mass quantity harvesting. Unfortunatly it is devoid of compassion. Perfect example is foie gras , force feeding.

    ....and with our robot friends, It will be a shame to pass off the killing (dirty work) to automation - pushing the human further away from his actions. Not connecting the dots between the consequences of his actions that caused the result. It will be as if 'why is the universe punishing me, I have done nothing wrong'. Yet the action of butchering even at arms length, is still attached to some human and society-group.


    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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