Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

Hope to see the answer from Pankaj or any other apologist of Prabhupada's version of Gaudiya-vaishnavism.
Question is put here:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...=1015#post1015

BTW it is not a mere speculative matter. Actual people following this really suffer. But none of ISCKON gurus care, people are nothing for them it seems
Where is LOVE in practical life?
The one who dared to object ISCKON violations, Harikesha Swami Vishnupad, one of the closest disciples of Prabhupada BTW, was scorned by ISCKON. My respects to this person who had enough courage.

[Singhi Kaya]

Best of Luck!

[Arjuna]

Interesting enough, many of the followers and even close associates of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did follow Tantric practice (sahajiya) which included sexual rituals, usually with another's wives (parakiya-shakti).
Of course, this fact was denied by Prabhupada. And yet we have to keep in mind that ISCKON represents only half of gaudiya-vaishnava tradition, the outer one. The hidden and exalted upasana of sahajiya (which is raganuga-bhakti level, succeeding vadhi-bhakti) is not at all present there.

[Arjuna]

Sushil Kumar De in his "Early History of the Vaishnava Faith and Movement in Bengal" (Calcutta, 1942) writes:
"We hear of the adorers of Chaitanya's Nagara-bhava, followers of Advaita, admirers of Gadadhara, devotees as well as detractors of Nityananda. Each of Chaitanya's associates and devotees appears to have developed a considerable community of disciples of his own, and taught the cult of bhakti according to the light which each had received in his own way from the Master." (P. 82)

E. C. Dimock in "The Place of the Hidden Moon" (University of Chicago Press, 1989) writes:
"There is a considerable evidence of Sahajiya leanings of many of Nityananda's followers." (P. 91)
In the same work he shows the fact that younger wife of Nityananda, Jahnava, was a Sahajiya guru (P. 98).

[orlando]

Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Well,as you know I am not an ISKCON a follower.I am a Sri vaishnava of Ramanuja-sampradaya.
However I suggest you to read http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/4regs/sex.htm
You will find the Prabhupada's words about this topic.
Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Well,as you know I am not an ISKCON a follower.I am a Sri vaishnava of Ramanuja-sampradaya.
However I suggest you to read http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/4regs/sex.htm
You will find the Prabhupada's words about this topic.
Regards,
Orlando.

Thank U for a link.

Rather interesting that after providing a quote from Bhagavata: "Sex with one's wife according to the scriptural injunctions is also accepted as brahmacarya (celibacy), but illicit sex is opposed to religious principles, and it hampers advancement in spiritual consciousness" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5:5:10-13), it continues with the odd statement that sex is only for begetting children, which is obviously not the case according to Shruti and Smriti.
If it was so, Gita would verily say that clearly. But Gita speaks only about balance in food and enjoyments (yuktAhAravihArasyAdi) and acknowledges Kama as a form of Krishna. And Kama is verily NOT a desire to procreate.

Hari OM

[orlando]

Namaste again.
Shri Arjuna,maybe you will find interesting Rig-Veda,Book 10,Hymn 85.
I will use the translation at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10085.htm
Please note the verse 37.
HYMN LXXXV. Surya's Bridal.
1. TRUTH is the base that bears the earth; by Surya are the heavens sustained.
By Law the Adityas stand secure, and Soma holds his place in heaven.
2 By Soma are the Adityas strong, by Soma mighty is the earth.
Thus Soma in the midst of all these constellations hath his place.
3 One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma's juice;
Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes.
4 Soma, secured by sheltering rules, guarded by hymns in Brhati,
Thou standest listening to the stones none tastes of thee who dwells on earth.
5 When they begin to drink thee then, O God, thou swellest out again.
Vayu is Soma's guardian God. The Moon is that which shapes the years.
6 Raibhi was her dear bridal friend, and Narasamsi led her home.
Lovely was Surya's robe: she came to that which Gatha had adorned.
7 Thought was the pillow of her couch, sight was the unguent for her eyes:
Her treasury was earth and heaven..when Surya went unto her Lord.
8 Hymns were the cross-bars of the pole, Kurira-metre decked the car:
The bridesmen were the Asvin Pair Agni was leader of the train.
9 Soma was he who wooed the maid: the groomsmen were both Asvins, when
The Sun-God Savitar bestowed his willing Surya on her Lord.
10 Her spirit was the bridal car; the covering thereof was heaven:
Bright were both Steers that drew it when Surya approached her husband's, home.
11 Thy Steers were steady, kept in place by holy verse and Sama-hymn:
All car were thy two chariot wheels: thy path was tremulous in the sky,
12 Clean, as thou wentest, were thy wheels wind, was the axle fastened there.
Surya, proceeding to her Lord, mounted a spirit-fashioried car.
13 The bridal pomp of Surya, which Savitar started, moved along.
In Magha days are oxen slain, in Arjuris they wed the bride.
14 When on your three-wheeled chariot, O Asvins, ye came as wooers unto Surya's bridal,
Then all the Gods agreed to your proposal Pusan as Son elected you as Fathers.
15 O ye Two Lords of lustre, then when ye to Surya's wooing came,
Where was one chariot wheel of yours? Where stood ye for die Sire's command?
16 The Brahmans, by their seasons, know, O Surya, those two wheels of thine:
One kept concealed, those only who are skilled in highest truths have learned.
17 To Surya and the Deities, to Mitra and to Varuna.
Who know aright the thing that is, this adoration have I paid.
18 By their own power these Twain in close succession move;
They go as playing children round the sacrifice.
One of the Pair beholdeth all existing things; the other ordereth seasons and is born again.
19 He, born afresh, is new and new for ever ensign of days he goes before the Mornings
Coming, he orders f6r the Gods their portion. The Moon prolongs the days of our existence.
20 Mount this, all-shaped, gold-hued, with strong wheels, fashioned of Kimsuka and Salmali, light-rolling,
Bound for the world of life immortal, Surya: make for thy lord a happy bridal journey.
21 Rise up from hence: this maiden hath a husband. I laud Visvavasu with hymns and homage.
Seek in her father's home another fair one, and find the portion from of old assigned thee.
22 Rise up from hence, Visvavasu: with reverence we worship thee.
Seek thou another willing maid, and with her husband leave the bride.
23 Straight in direction be the path:s, and thornless, whereon our fellows travel to the wooing.
Let Aryaman and Bhaga lead us: perfect, O Gods, the union of the wife and husband.
24 Now from the noose of Varuna I free thee, wherewith Most Blessed Savitar hath bound thee.
In Law's seat, to the world of virtuous action, I give thee up uninjured with thy consort.
25 Hence, and not thence, I send these free. I make thee softly fettered there.
That, Bounteous Indra, she may live blest in her fortune and her sons.
26 Let Pusan take thy hand and hence conduct thee; may the two Asvins on their car transport thee.
Go to the house to be the household's mistress and speak as lady ito thy gathered people.
27 Happy be thou and prosper witlh thy children here: be vigilant to rule thy household in this home.
Closely unite thy body with this; man, thy lord. So shall ye, full of years, address your company.
28 Her hue is blue and red: the fienod who clingeth close is driven off.
Well thrive the kinsmen of this bride the husband is bourid fast in bonds.
29 Give thou the woollen robe away: deal treasure to the Brahman priests.
This female fiend hath got her feet, and as a wife attends her lord.
30 Unlovely is his body when it glistens with this wicked fiend,
What time the husband wraps about his limbs the garment of his wife.
31 Consumptions, from her people, which follow the bride's resplendent train,-
These let the Holy Gods again bear to the place from which they came.
32 Let not the highway thieves who lie in ambush find the wedded pair.
By pleasant ways let them escape the danger, and let foes depart.
33 Signs of good fortune mark the bride come all of you and look at her.
Wish her prosperity, and then return unto your homes again.
34 Pungent is this, and bitter this, filled, as it were, with arrow-barbs, Empoisoned and.not fit for use.
The Brahman who knows Surya well deserves the garment of the bride.
35 The fringe, the cloth that decks her head, and then the triply parted robe,-
Behold the hues which Surya wears these doth the Brahman purify.
36 I take thy hand in mine for happy fortune that thou mayst reach old age with me thy husband.
Gods, Aryaman, Bhaga, Savitar, Purandhi, have given thee to be my household's mistress.
37 O Pusan, send her on as most auspicious, her who shall be the sharer of my pleasures;
Her who shall twine her loving arms about me, and welcome all my love and mine embraces.38 For thee, with bridal train, they, first, escorted Surya to her home.
Give to the husband in return, Agni, the wife with progeny.
39 Agni hath given the bride again with splendour and with ample life.
Long lived be he who is her lord; a hundred autumns let him live.
40 Soma obtained her first of all; next the Gandharva was her lord.
Agai was thy third husband: now one bornof woman is thy fourth.
41 Soma to the Gandharva, and to Agni the Gandharva gave:
And Agni hath bestowed on me riches and sons and this my spouse.
42 Be ye not parted; dwell ye here reach the full time of human life.
With sons and grandsons sport and play, rejoicing in your own abode.
43 So may Prajapati bring children forth to us; may Aryaman adorn us till old age come nigh.
Not inauspicious enter thou thy husband's house: bring blessing to our bipeds and our quadrupeds.
44 Not evil-eyed, no slayer of thy husband, bring weal to cattle, radiant, gentlehearted;
Loving the Gods, delightful, bearing heroes, bring blessing to our quadrupeds and bipeds.
45 O Bounteous Indra, make this bride blest in her sons and fortunate.
Vouchsafe to her ten sons, and make her husband the eleventh man.
46 Over thy husband's father and thy husband's mother bear full sway.
Over the sister of tby lord, over his brothers rule supreme.
47 So may the Universal Gods, so may the Waters join our hearts.
May Matarisvan, Dhatar, and Destri together bind us close.


Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

Thank U, this is nice.
I have seen some similar passages in Atharvana-samhita, there are several hymns dedicated to marriage.

[orlando]

Namaste.
Shri Arjuna,please read the following verses of Srimad Bhagavata Purana,Canto 11,Chapter 5:
(10) The Soul of the most worshipable Controller just like the sky eternally situated in all embodied beings, is the Ultimate Controller glorified by the Vedas, but the unintelligent don't take heed; they rather go on discussing the topics of their whimsical pleasures. (11) The indulgence in sex and the taking of meat and alcohol indeed always found in the conditioned living being are verily by no command of scripture endorsed; what in regard of these is prescribed for [respectively] the marriage, the sacrifice and the ritual use of wine, is there to the end of their cessation [see also 1.17: 38-39]. (12) Of all wealth [to be acquired] is religiosity the only fruit from which indeed there is the knowledge along with the wisdom and the subsequent liberation; they so successful in their homes do not realize the insurmountable power of death over their bodies [see also 3.30: 7, 7.6: 8, 4.29: 52-55 but also: 4.22: 10]. (13) It is enjoined that wine should be taken by smelling it and that likewise an animal should be killed as prescribed and not in wanton violence [with wide-scale animal slaughter]; the same way is sex there for begetting children and not for the sensual pleasure [on itself] [B.G. 7-11]; this most pure, their own proper duty, do they [the unintelligent] not understand [see also 7.15].

I used the translation at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto11/chapter5.html

At http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/11/5/en there is the translation of disciples of Prabhupada (who died before complete commentary to Bhagavatam).
SB 11.5.10: The Personality of Godhead is eternally situated within the heart of every embodied being; still the Lord remains situated apart, just as the sky, which is all-pervading, does not mix with any material object. Thus the Lord is the supreme worshipable object and the absolute controller of everything. He is elaborately glorified in the Vedic literature, but those who are bereft of intelligence do not like to hear about Him. They prefer to waste their time discussing their own mental concoctions, which inevitably deal with gross material sense gratification such as sex life and meat-eating.

SB 11.5.11:In this material world the conditioned soul is always inclined to sex, meat-eating and intoxication. Therefore religious scriptures never actually encourage such activities. Although the scriptural injunctions provide for sex through sacred marriage, for meat-eating through sacrificial offerings and for intoxication through the acceptance of ritual cups of wine, such ceremonies are meant for the ultimate purpose of renunciation.

SB 11.5.12: The only proper fruit of acquired wealth is religiosity, on the basis of which one can acquire a philosophical understanding of life that eventually matures into direct perception of the Absolute Truth and thus liberation from all suffering. Materialistic persons, however, utilize their wealth simply for the advancement of their family situation. They fail to see that insurmountable death will soon destroy the frail material body.

SB 11.5.13: According to the Vedic injunctions, when wine is offered in sacrificial ceremonies it is later to be consumed by smelling, and not by drinking. Similarly, the sacrificial offering of animals is permitted, but there is no provision for wide-scale animal slaughter. Religious sex life is also permitted, but only in marriage for begetting children, and not for sensuous exploitation of the body. Unfortunately, however, the less intelligent materialists cannot understand that their duties in life should be performed purely on the spiritual platform.


Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

I have seen these passages. They are told in special context and are not related to general case.
Moreover, they contradict Shruti and thus cannot be accepted as authorative.