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Thread: Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

  1. #21
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    Namaste all.
    When Shri Chaitanya was at Purī his feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects.
    One of his personal associates, namely Choṭa Haridāsa, was associated with Shri Caitanya along with his other confidential personal associates, but somehow or other this Choṭa Haridāsa looked lustily on a young woman, and Shri Caitanya was so strict that he at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates.Shri Caitanya said, "For a sannyāsī or anyone who is aspiring to get out of the clutches of material nature and trying to elevate himself to the spiritual nature and go back home, back to Godhead, for him, looking toward material possessions and women for sense gratification — not even enjoying them, but just looking toward them with such a propensity — is so condemned that he had better commit suicide before experiencing such illicit desires."

    Haridasa was never accepted again, even though Shri Chaitanya was implored to excuse Haridasa for the mistake. Junior Haridasa afterwards committed suicide due to being disassociated from the company of Shri Chaitanya, and the news of suicide was duly related to Shri Chaitanya.He said that Haridasa had rightly met with the proper punishment.

    Regards,
    Orlando.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakta of God
    Namaste all.
    When Shri Chaitanya was at Pur? his feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects.
    One of his personal associates, namely Chot?a Harid?sa, was associated with Shri Caitanya along with his other confidential personal associates, but somehow or other this Chot?a Harid?sa looked lustily on a young woman, and Shri Caitanya was so strict that he at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates.
    I have read about this story. And i really hope it is a later invention, since i believe Chaitanya was a true saint and thus couldn't behave in a described manner.

    In any case, this issue is relevant for SANNYASA-ashrama, which is obviously different in its dharma from Grihastha.

  3. #23
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    Also I hope it is a later invention.I can't believe that Shri Chaitanya didn't forget Haridasa.He accepted even ex-sinners in his company.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram
    You can either be a Yogi or a Bogi. If you attempt both you will be a Rogi. What is the need for grihastas to involve in Yoga at all?
    This is utterly wrong. Yoga is the very essence of Hinduism (and every true religion), it is connection and union with God. Everyone is supposed to be a Yogi, since that is the purpose of human life — to know God.
    Yoga is a spiritual Path which is beyond any ashramas — which are social stages only. One can know Atman and unite with God in any stage and condition.
    True Yoga has nothing to do with rejection of the world, since a Yogi sees everything as a manifestation of his own Consciousness. Grihasthi has a chance to make the Divine Samarasya apparent in relationships with his wife, who is Sakshan-Mahadevi.

    Kularnava and Mahanirvana Tantras state that for Kaula-yogi Moksha and Bhoga are one. In Srividya it is also said, shrIsundarI sevanatatparANAm bhuktiM cha muktiM cha karastha eva.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram
    Your whole idea violates Yama and Niyama, the cornerstones of any Yogic practice. This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule. Every Hindu school preaches the notion of having reduced material desires and dedicating your life for God and Godly activities -- naturally implying these rules.
    No Hindu school preaches that sex in marriage is only for procreation. This idea is a blatant violation of Vedic and Smarta dharma.
    To love one's wife is NOT a "material desire". I regret if for U it is so...

    Yama and Niyama which are given in Yoga-sutras are applicable to Patanjali's system and not to each and every.
    Shaiva Yoga is based on Shaivagamas and Bhairavagamas, which have their own Niyamas. It is a mistake and ignorance to impose Ur personal idea upon every Hindu tradition.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jalasayanan
    I have no problems in ignoring but all your topics are dealing with basic instincts only - in a way or another.
    Hope Mr Satay or Mr B Yoga Seeker did not made this forum only for basic instincts. Or atleast instead of using the three letter word often you can find some better variance, which could save some face
    Please, as U wish

    U prefer to see it as a "basic instinct", and i see it as a function of Consciousness. Views differ, and that's OK

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram
    This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule.
    In most cases an "unwritten" rule is an imagined one
    This is not a kinda secret teaching, but a rule of conduct, which either is present in Vaishnava-dharma or absent from it.

    Dharma is clearly put in Shastras. Since this "4th principle" is absent from Vedas and Dharma-shastras, it has to be at least written down in Vaishnava scriptures.
    Till now the only reference is a verse from Bhagavata, which was told in regard of materialists and NOT devotees.

    Thus, most probably it simply doesn't exist as a rule.

    Also, i strongly doubt that all Shrivaishnavas will agree with what U said.

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    Re: Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

    Regulation means controlling the senses. Its not just ISKCON which prescribes these regulations but any 'genuine' spiritual movement does mandate these regulations. The objective of spiritual seeking is to be completely absorbed with the God and that absorption includes feelings, thoughts and all sense related activities.

    If you want God and spiritual life as time pass, you have to object these regulations and judging it as wrong is due to the cultural barriers and nothing else.

  8. #28
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    Exclamation Re: Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

    Quote Originally Posted by grames
    Regulation means controlling the senses. Its not just ISKCON which prescribes these regulations but any 'genuine' spiritual movement does mandate these regulations. The objective of spiritual seeking is to be completely absorbed with the God and that absorption includes feelings, thoughts and all sense related activities.
    If you want God and spiritual life as time pass, you have to object these regulations and judging it as wrong is due to the cultural barriers and nothing else.
    Namaste,

    This type of generalisation U make serves only confusion
    Of course, all spiritual paths [in their beginning at least] imply control of mind, senses and actions. However suppression and control are very different if not say opposite. True control is awareness, while suppression is unconsciousness.

    God made a sexual urge in a human being verily not solely for procreation. Procreative instinct is inherent in all creatures, but only human is capable of erotic love and aesthetic experience of (Rasa) sex. Smriti restrict sexual relations to marriage, which is a rule for all orthodox Hindu traditions (apart from Tantric, which can be named heterodox, Atimargika). And nowhere in Shruti & Smriti it is said that sex is to be restricted to procreation alone. This 4th principle is imagined by Prabhupada (or his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta) and it clearly goes against Dharma.

    U may see a thread about Shrivaishnavism as well, where this topic is discussed in more detail.

  9. #29
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    Re: Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

    If you come from the philosophies of OSHO etc.. it is very difficult to differentiate the meaning of 'regulation' from restriction. As a six sensed living, you can 'regulate' your urges and as you progress spiritually this regulation itself is not necessary as you will not have taste for such sense gratification.

    If your mind is so developed and you can think of Lord even when you are actively participating in a sexual union, then you don't require this 'regulation' and if this cannot be achived, then your excuses of justifying it as "God" given and God created won't stand. Do you think it is possible to achive such state?

    So, when you are a beginner , follow these regulative process by engaging with only one partner who is married to you and committed to you. Mind is like a monkey and with out regulation you cannot anchor it and with out anchoring it at the feet of Lord you will not progress. Whether it is Sri Vaishnava or Advaita or any hindu traditions, the ultimate prescription is to master all the senses and absorb all completely with and for Lord. If the goal is not understood, these regulations might sound unhealthy but it is not against Dharma.

  10. #30
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    Light Re: Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

    Quote Originally Posted by grames
    If your mind is so developed and you can think of Lord even when you are actively participating in a sexual union, then you don't require this 'regulation' and if this cannot be achived, then your excuses of justifying it as "God" given and God created won't stand. Do you think it is possible to achive such state?
    Namaste,

    I do not "think" it is possible, i know this.

    For a note, process in question is not "thinking of the Lord," but bhAvanA. There is no exact english equilavent, but in any case it isn't a thought process.

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