Genuine Questions on Advaita

[smaranam]

Ultimately, everything is ParaBramhan, everything that happens is the "hand of Parameshwar." This is experience. However, the fact that there are variations in power, shows the existence of multiple entities (including avatars) - be they dis/embodied, dormant/active at a point in time (kAla). YogaShakti plays [an inseperable] part in it - even though changing.


It means that the final statement of keval advaita is more of an axiom of underlying oneness that vedAnta talks about :
AtmA = Bramhan [in quality or category];
sunrays or dhUp = photons [in substance];
raindrops = H2O [in composition],

and not necessarily a literal practical reality:
(2 + 2 = 4 ; square has 4 equal sides ; a triangle has three sides).

Also, not in terms of existence: Lake water and pond water is water alright, but they occupy 2 distinct spaces, even if you keep them distilled - this cannot be ignored.

It shows Ishwar is Ishwar and the new jnani is a new jnani. Jnani is a bhakta in the consciousness of oneness with Bramhan and hence oneness with Parameshwar (tadAtmictA). They (Ishwar and jnani) are "AtmA" of each other.
(an advaita follower once said: "So basically KRshNa is telling us He is a jnani"
Well, He is telling us a lot more than that - that He is Parameshwar, and that is the whole point.)

Also, to "live" this keval axiom, 100% inactivity and dormancy is demanded so as to not become two/many)

Achintya-bheda-abheda says : as long as the evidence of subtle tendency for sankalpa remains, the natural tendency is subtle activity not dormancy. Devotees make it activity in devotion instead of activity in
the mortal world. The thought being - subtelest sharIr, and/or 5th - anandamay kosha cannot be killed, it can only be subdued. So, if at all sanlkalpa arises, the entity is with Parameshwar, not alone, and the devotion to PArameshwar will keep the entity out of material bondage of false-ego, fear, misery, vikAr, vices, rajas and tamas. This itself is freedom. e.g. Chitraketu - BhAgvat Canto 6.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

[Amrut]

Already gave a link to a post on Shripad Shrivallabh who says:

Parameshwar = sacchidananda Bramhan with sankalpa and
the disembodied siddha/jnani = sacchidananda without sankalpa.

Perhaps you did not read it, since I saw the same thing repeated in the last post. If Ishwar makes a sankalpa to dispatch this jnani some place after leaving the body, the jnani goes there. For this, the disembodied jnani's existence has to be individual (has to have a marker, identifier), although consciousness is that of Bramhan. This is the difference between individual existence and individual consciousness - was my point.

3. I am not mixing NirguNa and SaguNa. By "Bramhan-minds" I mean minds of Jnanis who have realized that they are that Bramhan. These are connected to but distinct from the Cosmic Mind of Ishwar.
I said this: siddhAtmA1 <-------> Parameshwar <-----> SiddhAtmA2. (Siddhatma need not be embodied).
Moeover, "the Cosmic Mind of Ishwar" was not my addition.

I understand now what you are trying to tell.

But the quote

Parameshwar = sacchidananda Bramhan with sankalpa and
the disembodied siddha/jnani = sacchidananda without sankalpa.

Is an advaitic, as I understand. Same thing Adi Shankara has said.

In NirguNa brahman there is no sankalp.

Ultimately, everything is ParaBramhan, everything that happens is the "hand of Parameshwar." This is experience. However, the fact that there are variations in power, shows the existence of multiple entities (including avatars) - be they dis/embodied, dormant/active at a point in time (kAla). YogaShakti plays [an inseperable] part in it - even though changing.


It means that the final statement of keval advaita is more of an axiom of underlying oneness that vedAnta talks about :
AtmA = Bramhan [in quality or category];
sunrays or dhUp = photons [in substance];
raindrops = H2O [in composition],

and not necessarily a literal practical reality:
(2 + 2 = 4 ; square has 4 equal sides ; a triangle has three sides).

Also, not in terms of existence: Lake water and pond water is water alright, but they occupy 2 distinct spaces, even if you keep them distilled - this cannot be ignored.

It shows Ishwar is Ishwar and the new jnani is a new jnani. Jnani is a bhakta in the consciousness of oneness with Bramhan and hence oneness with Parameshwar (tadAtmictA). They (Ishwar and jnani) are "AtmA" of each other.
(an advaita follower once said: "So basically KRshNa is telling us He is a jnani"
Well, He is telling us a lot more than that - that He is Parameshwar, and that is the whole point.)

Also, to "live" this keval axiom, 100% inactivity and dormancy is demanded so as to not become two/many)

Achintya-bheda-abheda says : as long as the evidence of subtle tendency for sankalpa remains, the natural tendency is subtle activity not dormancy. Devotees make it activity in devotion instead of activity in
the mortal world. The thought being - subtelest sharIr, and/or 5th - anandamay kosha cannot be killed, it can only be subdued. So, if at all sanlkalpa arises, the entity is with Parameshwar, not alone, and the devotion to PArameshwar will keep the entity out of material bondage of false-ego, fear, misery, vikAr, vices, rajas and tamas. This itself is freedom. e.g. Chitraketu - BhAgvat Canto 6.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

I have not studied Sripad Shrivallab. Hence I do not know what he has said. On searching for the word, 'Sripad Shrivallabh' it appears just once in this thread.

The questions that you have raised are indeed subtle as to what happens after Jnana and as you have pointed out

This is the difference between individual existence and individual consciousness - was my point.

I fail to understand the difference between the two.

Again, the questions raised are about what happens after Jnana. I understand that there is an a priori that the world is real and hence Ishwara descends. There is jiva, with or without sankalpa, etc. I know the logical argument that we see that Jnani retains body and works under Bhagavan or has wish to enjoy Lila or take part in Lila. However, Advaita considers this world as unreal, and so nothign real can happen. Hence this part is not given importance, atleast by saadhaka.

For an Advaitin, As I have understood, the world does not exist and hence no question to descent and be a witness, and hence no theory of part and full relation with Bhagavan.

My recent study of Adhyaropa apavada simply says that the attributes are false superimposition on Self that are laid to separate Self or 'I' from body and sense objects by being a witness. Later on being a witness also drops. What remains is just Brahman. This state cannot be described as there is no witness or separate thing to see or experience. I have tried to explain it here.

For this moron, Advaita ends here. No ascend, no descend. Rest all about Avatar, Jiva, qualitatively same, quantitatively different. Bhagavan commanding Jnani to do some work, Jnani retaining individual consciousness, but without any sankalp or sankalp of Jiva is replaced with sankalp of Jnani, etc does not arise at all. They are concepts that are taught so that the doubts arising in disciples can be satisfactorily answered. I also gave e.g. about concept of Prarabhbha, as how earlier it was said that one cannot stay without karma even for a moment and then bhagavan in next chapter says that in Jnana, all karma-s are destroyed. All Includes prarabhdha.

AtmA = Bramhan [in quality or category];
sunrays or dhUp = photons [in substance];
raindrops = H2O [in composition],

There is nothing separate than you. There is no mAyA, hence one only experiences Sun and not sun rays. This is the last state.

After one merges in Brahman or knows true nature, It's just you, Self, Brahman. No other thing. This is the last state.

This is what my advaitized mind thinks and believes. Though some other knowledgeable members can shed some light on it.

What you are trying to understand, satisfactory explanation can be given from Visistadvaita POV or Achintya-bheda-abheda.

Sorry Smaranam ji if I have not understood you. This is as much as my intelligence goes

----------

Finally, as earlier said, here is a quote from Shiva Gita about Destruction of Jiva.

As my English is weak, I have also written Hindi Translation.

तत्तत्कर्मानुसारेण जाग्रभ्दोगोपलब्धये ।
इदं लिग्ङशरीराख्यमामोक्षान्न निवर्तते ॥ ३७ ॥

अपने किये उन कर्मो के अनुसार जाग्रतादि अवस्था में सुख-दुःख का साक्षात्कार जीव करता रहता है । सम्पूर्ण वृत्ति लिंगशरीर से उठती है । जब तक मोक्ष न हो, लिंगशरीर का नाश नहीं होता ।

According to the karma done in waking consciousness, one experiences pleasure and pain. all vrriti-s (thoughts arising in mind) arise due to ling sarira (jiva / subtle body). Until moksha is not achieved, linga sarira is not destroyed. (Shiva Gita 10.37)

आत्मज्ञानेन नष्टेनऽस्मिन्साविद्ये सशरीरके ।
आत्मस्वरुपावस्थानं मुक्तिरित्यभिधीयते ॥ ३८ ॥

जिस समय ज्ञान द्वारा जीव और ब्रह्म का भेद मिट जायेगा और अविद्या सहित इस लिंगशरीर का नाश हो जायेगा उस समय केवल आत्मा का अनुभव मात्र 'अहं ब्रह्मास्मि' इस स्वरूप में स्थिर होने से ही मुक्त होता है ।

Moment when, due to Jnana, the difference between Jiva and Brahman will be removed and avidya (ignorance) including ling sharira will be destroyed. At that time there will be the experience of only Atman in the form of 'I am Brahman' will be stabilized. Due to stabilizing or staying in this experience, one become mukta (free). (Shiva Gita 10.38)

Note: Definition of Ling Sarira is given in Shiva Gita 10.15, 10.16 and 10.17

Sanskrit Sloka:

नानाविध्यासमायुक्तो जीवत्वेन वसाम्यहम्* ।
पच्चकर्मेन्द्रियाण्येव पच्च ज्ञानेन्द्रियाणि च ।
मनोबुद्धिरहंकारश्चित्त वेति चतुष्टयम्* ॥ १५ ॥

वयवः पच्च मिलिता यंति लिङ्गशरीरताम्* ( लिग्ङशरीरताम्* ) ।
तत्राविध्यारिकमायुक्तं चैतन्यं प्रतिबिम्बितम्* ॥ १६ ॥

व्यावहारिकजीवस्तु क्षेत्रज्ञः पुरूषोऽपि च ॥ १७ ॥

Hindi Translation:


अनेक प्रकार की अविध्या के साश्रय होकर जीवरूप से भी मैं ही निवास करता हूँ । पाँच कर्मेन्द्रियाँ और पाँच ज्ञानेन्द्रियाँ, मन, बुद्धि, अहंकार, चित्त इनका चतुष्टय और पाँच प्राण यह सब मिलकर लिंग शरीर को उत्पन्न करते हैं । उसी लिंग शारीर में अविद्ध्यायुक्त यह चैतन्य का प्रतिबिम्ब पड़ता है, उसी को व्यवहार में ‘जीव', ‘क्षेत्रज्ञ' और ‘पुरूष' करते हैं ।

English Translation:

Taking aadhaara (support) of Different types of avidya (ignorance), only I reside in Jiva-rUpa

OR

Associating with different types of ignorance, only I (Bhagavan Shiva) reside in Jiva-rUpa.

5 karmendriya-s (parts of action) and
5 jnanendriya-s (5 senses of knowledge),
Collection of 4 - mind, intellect, ego, chitta and
5 prana (vital air)

- Locus of all the above rise rise to ling sharira.

in this ling sharira, due to adivya (ignorance), there is a reflection of this chaitanya (consciousness).

This in relative terms is called as 'Jiva', 'Kshetragya' and 'Purusha'.

--------

Aum

Amrut

[smaranam]

Sorry Smaranam ji if I have not understood you

Are you kidding? ... I mean ... Am I kidding myself? Using the HDF user account "IS Amrut" I have made some wonderful posts on this thread - that's if it exists.



I want to thank, but whom? myself? Since there is no one else. I am serious. There is no one else. The last 2 posts made using the account name "smaranam" were not asking questions. Just don't worry about them.
They are not worthy of samAdhi-bhanga.

Who / what is this "smaranamji" by the way? Never mind. Why focus on the non-existent?

_/\_
vAsanAdvAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvana trayam
sarva deva nivAsosi vAsudeva namostute

[Amrut]

Are you kidding? err... I mean ... Am I kidding myself? Using the HDF user account "IS Amrut" I have made some wonderful posts on this thread - that's if it exists.



I want to thank, but whom? myself? Since there is no one else. I am serious. There is no one else. The last 2 posts made using the account name "smaranam" were not asking questions. Just don't worry about them.
They are not worthy of samAdhi-bhanga.

Who / what is this "smaranamji" by the way? Never mind. Why focus on the non-existent?

_/\_
vAsanAdvAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvana trayam
sarva deva nivAsosi vAsudeva namostute

Namaste,

You can thank IS Amrut ji from relative reality

Actually, I just blogged this

Sri Ramakrishna (to Kedar) — Oh, I see. His belief is like that of the rishis. The rishis said to Ramachandra, ‘Rama, we know you are the son of Dasharatha. Bharadvaja and other rishis may take you as an avatar and worship you. But we only want Akhanda Sachchidananda (Indivisible Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute).’ Hearing this, Rama laughed and left.

Source

Somewhere in Hindu Dharma book, I have read about attitude of Jnani-s towards avatarhood and jiva hood. Paramacharya says that similar thing

Lets keep bull's eye our goal, Nirvikalp Samadhi and Enjoying Leela

I tried my best to answer questions, but failed to give satisfactory answer. Never mind. I will not run away by saying all this is mithyA. I have been taught to face it, with a smile. It has been a great learning experience.

btw, updated lst post with sanskrit and hindi translation of Shiva Gita 10.15-17

In the Book, Hindu Dharma, the definition of Siddha given in Sanskrit Glossary is:

One who has attained perfection, accomplished adept; liberated person; an inspired sage; one who has acquired the eight siddhis. Siddha-purusha is a master who possesses all the siddhis.

Aum

Amrut

[Amrut]

ok, got it

The Lord speaks of the samadarsana of the wise man who is absorbed in the Atman and for whom there exists nothing [other than the Atman] including creation - and even the fact the Ishvara is the creator is of no consequence to him.

Online source not available.

Book: Hindu Dharma, part 20, chapter 2, Caste according to the Vedas and the Gita, pages 647-650

Please say thanks to me. I will appreciate it. Buy me a vada pav. I will offer it to bhagavan Krishna and then take it as prasad. Promise

I want to thank, but whom? myself? Since there is no one else. I am serious. There is no one else. The last 2 posts made using the account name "smaranam" were not asking questions. Just don't worry about them.
They are not worthy of samAdhi-bhanga.

It seems that no matter how much we try to understand another religio-philosophical system, we come back to our own system

Aum

Amrut

[brahman]

Many praNAms

Please address the following questions on Advaita that have been lurking in the mind.

First, premises or axiomatic understanding - subject to checks.

1. AtmA inside body of a creature is consciousness - distinct from mind, intellect, ego
2. Brahman is essentially all-pervading consciousness and substratum of everything.
3. Shvetasvatara Up. says AtmA is atomic but pervades the body.
4. Parameshvar/BhagavAn is essentially Brahman with a pure functional ahaMkAr, omnipotent, omnipresent,
omniscient. Everywhere simultaneously, with infinite limbs, eyes...
om namostav anantAya sahastramUrtaye
sahastrapAdAkshashirorubAhave
sahastranAmne purushAya shAsvate
sahastra koti yuga dhAriNe namah:

QUESTIONS
1. When the individual is Self-realized fully, NO ignorance, No vikAr (blemishes, faults), No shadripU (six vices of kaam krodh lobh moha matsar), beyond guNa, NO ego, NO sense of individuality, identity, me you they,
is this not what Brahman is? So then, the purest of the pure one as above, are they supposed to be that very same Brahman as in omniscient-omnipotent-omnipresent and when manifest, are necessarily with 8 major and 18 siddhis including Ishitva?
Why or Why not?

2. In other words, such a state of existence as described above, i.e. tUryAvasthA, should and does it enable manifestation of NArAyaNa i.e. Parameshwar?

3. Or, in other words, does such a state of existence command the entire YogamAyA at disposal ?
If the answer to this is yes, then it must imply that this state as described in Qn 1. is UTOPIAN, TOO THEORETICAL, because otherwise...

4. How do you explain aMsha avatArs, vibhUtis, shaktyAvesha avatAr as opposed to the pUrNa avatAr or pUrNa purushottam BhagvAn Shri KRshNa?

Are these partial avatars not in the purest state? If yes, what makes them partial? What "covers" the Yoga shakti partially?

For us jivas, we are infinitsimal, but Advaita blames that infinitesimalness on our ignorance and conditioning (vices, faults, 3 gunas ). So we have very little shakti at our disposal.
However, if all avatArs (fractional, of full) are pUrNa Bramhan, in tUryAvasthA, very pure, what makes one a part of NArAyaNa and another more NArAyaNa and another less NArAyaNa?

thank you so much!

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Dear Smaranam,


Though Bhakti and Jnana are two distinct methodological devices for attaining the Absolute, they need to complement each other for the purpose of accomplishment.

In the case of deep devotion, the attention of the seeker is diverted completely towards the anthropomorphic personalities.

In the case of Jnaana, the attitude of the seeker is to concentrate fully on ‘the Word of The Guru’.

Faith, learning scriptures and complete sacrifice are incapable of being avoided in both cases.

===============


Answers to your questions can end up in absurd conclusions, so I kindly recommend you approach the Advaitha philosophy in a rather systematic manner.

Please read Dr. K. Sadananda’s (I guess Dr. is one of your favourite Advaitha-Teachers.) inquiry into epistemological issues related to Advaitha Vedanta.


Here we see some excerpts from his essay the ‘Critical analysis of vedAnta paribhAShA’; in this he writes:


The purpose of the inquiry into Epistemological issues, as DA emphasizes in this introduction to VP, is to gain knowledge of Brahman, knowing which there is no return to the transitory world. Hence, understanding of the process by which knowledge takes place in the mind is essential to separate what is transitory from what is permanent. This discrimination is called nitya-anitya vastu viveka and is essential for Vedantins. This helps in meditation by shifting from that which is transitory to that which is permanent, as when we try to 'visualize' that because of which we have the capacity to visualize.

DA is Dharmaraja Advarindra, the author of the book ‘vedAnta paribhAShA’

VP is ‘vedAnta paribhAShA’

Epistemology is a branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge such as perception, conception, apperception etc...

==================================

Note: The Final knowledge according to Vedanta remains immediate, having no intervening medium, and remains an ineffable
mystery never ceases.

Love

[smaranam]

Here is the concern : The fact that Bramhan allowed Himself to be deluded ("throttled Himself") into being covered by the body of an ant, mongoose, chimpanzee, snake, tree and moss, and worse, allowed Himself to THINK He is that ant, mongoose,,, (SB 1.2.33)
shows that the jnani can go back to being an ajnani. Then what? If there is no devotion and a live personal relationship with Parameshwar (- sakhA, suRhd, swami, priyatam, hitachintak antaryami - ThePerson), the re-deluded jnani is lost and back into the world. A bhakta may fall down, and if s/he does forget the Lord, the Lord runs to the devotee to revive the relationship at the slightest symptom of pondering over past.
If the mongoose had ID # 12345 it was Bramhan who grabbed that ID, and simultaneously innumerable other IDs. The jnani who is essentially Bramhan can also get a new ID # 67890 and come into this world - maybe after a kalpa or two of tUryAvasthA. If desires arose then, they can arise now. What's the difference?

[smaranam]

Thanks a lot Amrutji and Bramhan... it is wierd thanking oneself.

Your True Self

[Amrut]

Thanks a lot Amrutji and Bramhan... it is wierd thanking oneself.

Your True Self

Namaste

What you say is like seeing a snake and claiming that 'I am seeing rope'

Looks like those advaita lessons were not sufficient

Need some more?

A short one pleaasssssssseeeeeee . I promise it will be a short one

Tat Tvam Asi is a upadeshaka Mahavakya - You are That (Brahman)
One meditates with ananya bhava (a+anya = not -different) 'AyamAtmA Brahma' (Atman is Brahman)
During meditation, one realizes, pragyAnama Brahman i.e. consciousness is Brahman (consciousness is everything, awareness is the key, as it helps one separate oneself 'I' from which is not Self)
Finally one realizes that aham BrahmAsmi, I am Brahman

After steadying in this Jnana, Smaranam ji can say,

Your True Self

-----x--------x------x----- The End -----x--------x------x-----

anyways,

Thanks a lot Amrutji

Always pleasure talking with you.

__/ \__

Jai Shri Krishna

[smaranam]

What you say is like seeing a snake and claiming that 'I am seeing rope'

NO. The Self sees rope, but in some corner of this illusiory world, an illusiory figure called Amrut is seeing snakes and in that very illusion demands that the Self should thank the snake - not once, but twice!

Before this the illusiory figure sees statements and makes wrong assumptions, sees questions where they were not asked, illusion within illusion, and gives basic Advaita lessons on an illusiory thread where they are unnecessary within the illusion itself. Another illusion.