Converting...

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


I ~smile~ when I hear this idea of 'converting'. It is like saying the catpiller is converting to a butterfly.


iti śivaṁ

[Sudas Paijavana]

Namaste,

Please explain.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

Namaste,

Please explain.

When a river enters into an ocean , does it convert ? It is the flow of the water from one container to another. The boundaries have changed.
A clump of wet clay is ~held~ by the surrounding space . It then becomes a pot and now it holds space. Tell me if the space is any different ?

When one becomes aware of sanātana dharma and chooses to know more about it, to come to know ātman (Self, Being) has that ātman converted to any thing then it already has been for an infinite time ?

If we are anything, perhaps it is more closer to vyākṛta - unfolded; developed.

iti śivaṁ

[Sudas Paijavana]

delete

[Avyaydya]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

When a river enters into an ocean , does it convert ?

Yes

It is the flow of the water from one container to another. The boundaries have changed.

Significant change indeed

A clump of wet clay is ~held~ by the surrounding space . It then becomes a pot and now it holds space. Tell me if the space is any different ?

If you put it this way, Yes

When one becomes aware of sanātana dharma and chooses to know more about it, to come to know ātman (Self, Being) has that ātman converted to any thing then it already has been for an infinite time ?

No Atman can not change, Atman should not concern us

If we are anything, perhaps it is more closer to vyākṛta - unfolded; developed.

Important change yes

[Viraja]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


When a river enters into an ocean , does it convert ? It is the flow of the water from one container to another. The boundaries have changed.
A clump of wet clay is ~held~ by the surrounding space . It then becomes a pot and now it holds space. Tell me if the space is any different ?

When one becomes aware of sanātana dharma and chooses to know more about it, to come to know ātman (Self, Being) has that ātman converted to any thing then it already has been for an infinite time ?

If we are anything, perhaps it is more closer to vyākṛta - unfolded; developed.

iti śivaṁ

This is a wonderful thought, Yajvan ji!

So if the atman is the same both before and after the realization of the self, what really changes? If it is said that 'manas' changes, then it should be viewed as separate from atman, when it is said that only the atman takes rebirths.

[Mana]

.......

[Believer]

Namaste,

Some may define converting as putting on a new layer over the old layer, something we do during winter months when we put on new layers of sweaters and jackets over the existing layer of an undershirt and a shirt to escape the cold. But to me converting is like a seed becoming a tree. The seed must die after being fertilized and watered, for a tree to be born. Old conditioning of the soul must die for the new conditioning to fully take hold. A new layer of Hinduism over a never rejected layer of Xitinity does not make one a complete Hindu. The core has to change, not just hidden from plain sight with some new fancy coverings.

When a person takes a sanyas, in many sampradayas one goes through a formal initiation ritual whereby one's replica is thrown into the sacred fire of the havan, signifying demise of the what 'has been' and a transitioning to the new phase. The person also gets a new name and severs all ties to his friends and family and truly becomes a renunciate with no worldly attachments. It is not a mere makeover of outer appearance, but a change of the core; not a cover up but a discarding of 'what has been' and an acceptance of something new.

Gullible hindus are enamored by nice colorful pictures and fancy prose without thinking about or understanding the thought being conveyed. A caterpillar with the right values becomes a butterfly that everybody loves, and a caterpillar with different attributes becomes a moth or a termite, which could be very destructive. There is lot of difference between a smile arising from a joyous heart/thought and a snickering coming out of watching what one may perceive to be ignorant fools.

Pranam.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam:

If the butterfly were to retain any of his previous attributes, he wouldn't be able to fly.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

Vannakkam:

If the butterfly were to retain any of his previous attributes, he wouldn't be able to fly.

Aum Namasivaya

To the unaided eye one would think that the caterpillar and butterfly were two mutually exclusive species, yet the butterfly resides within the caterpillar from the very beginning.


The brute, the paśu�, contains within itself the Divine...
If this is so, as our śāstra-s inform us, where is the conversion ? Surely it is not so trite to suggest 'before I believed these values when I was in this tribe (viśa�), now I follow these values, and hence I converted' . This to me seems like small-small thinking.

It is like looking at a number line; a 1 (one) is positioned here, the 2 is there, the 10 is a bit more to the right. Yet the number is only trying to give the line that is infinite some value, some identification. Did the '1' convert to a '2' ?


So, what am I saying ? IMHO , to the unaided eye we think some ~conversion~ takes place , or in fact is needed, for us to move to a higher level of understanding. Yet what is occurring ? vyākṛta - unfoldment and development.

iti śivaṁ

words

• paśu or paś�nā - any tethered animal, singularly or collectively
  • 'a herd '; 5 kinds are enumerated , " men , kine , horses , goats and sheep "
  • paśutā - the state of an animal
  • paśutva - (with māheśvara-s and pāśupata-s) the being the individual soul
  • paśavya - belonging to a herd; a herd or drove of cattle
• viśa - a tribe, or class of people; of a man