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  1. #1
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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste

    The statements, which are based on inference and not Vedas, that "Hence, it is clear that those who are not qualified to study the veda are indeed qualified to hear the vedic message through other means, i.e. the itihAsa/purAnas" and "Smritis, purANas and itihAs give the same knowledge of Shrutis in a way they can be understood and digested by common man" seem insulting to countless Hindus if you really look at it.

    It is like saying "Vedas" (the learning of, quoting the Vedas, grammer and memorizing them) is only for "uncommon man" (viz smarter and higher birth then the riff raff) and histories such as the Ramayana are for the "common" (viz low birth, stupid people who cannot digest anything like the Vedas).

    So the Ramayana is for the stupid people (viz a "way they can be understood and digested by common man" viz stupid people). It is like saying the Ramayana, which is the life of Rama, and the purpose of Ram "is for those other, low birth people who cannot understand, you know, the stupid low castes who are not able to digest the Vedas like us high caste smart people".

    Sort of insulting to Lord Rama as well.

    Can someone give me the exact and explicite quote from one of the four Vedas that explicitly states memorizing the Vedas and it's grammer and Sanskrit, is only birth based? Not some commentary that came millions of years after the Vedas from a modern saint of the last 500 years, but from the Vedas?

    And when some commentary of some Saint is used, why is it the same four or so saints named, as if all Hindus follow them? Why isn't, for example, Lord Caitanya and His life and associates quoted for example. He doesn't count?

    Om Namah Sivaya

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste ShivaFan ji,

    Paramacharya is been widely accepted figure. Of course Veda-s are final authority. But the interpretation has to be done by someone.

    If anyone has access to sAyanAcharya's commentary on veda-s, it would be better. We have already seen from Gita bhasya that one verse can be interpreted in many ways and that one sanskrit word has many meaning. What i am trying to say is that just quote is not enough, though quote from veda-s is necessary, as they are final authority.

    Also note that Paramachrya does not say that one varna is higher than other. they are only separated upon work distribution. Each varna has it's own pride and a sense on contentment. Since Brahmins are given the task of protecting veda-s and they dedicate their entire life for this purpose, not even allowed to earn money, but live on donations, they live or are supposed to live pious life. Jati- (vaste) ar subset of varna

    Please do not take it as insult.

    I have read it in Shankar Vigvijay by Madhav VidyAranya Swami that Bhagavan Veda Vyas appreciated Adi Shankaracharya ji on his comments on Brahma Sutra. He acknowledged that he rightly said that Brahmin-s are qualified to learn veda-s. I will try to get exact verse. I have not read Brahma Sutra-s hence I cannot quote the same.

    Regarding Sanskrit, I am not aware if learning sanskrit and rules of grammar are also restricted to Brahmin-s. Since Veda-s are in Sanskrit, and they are to be protected in it's original form, hence sanskrit and chandas are also needed to be preserved.

    Even diacritical marks cannot fully convey the meaning of veda-s, as to what extend the pitch has to be extended and right methods of chanting to preserve veda-s like natural way of chanting and some reverse method of chanting. This is not easy and one needs to dedicate entire life to preserve. Veda-s cannot preserved just by writing them down.

    Please read

    Vedas in their original form

    Methods of Chanting

    Sound and Creation

    Unity in diversity

    Please understand there is no intention to insult.

    Aum

    Amrut
    Last edited by Amrut; 05 August 2013 at 05:34 AM.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste,

    A quick googling landed me on this verse.

    This is proved by Sruti and Smriti as well. The Sruti says Those whose conduct, during the previous life, has been good, presently obtain good birth, such as the birth of a Brahmin, a Kshatriya or a Vaisya; those whose conduct has been bad presently obtain some evil birth such as that of a dog or a pig (Chh. Up. V.10.7).
    http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publi...78&format=html

    Why is it that a birth if Brahmin is obtained after many meritious karma?

    Does this not mean that Brahmin is pure by birth. Is it not purity an important criteria to learn shastra-s?

    Another view is that after death the entire store of Karmas about to bear fruit fructifies. Therefore the souls come to the earth without any Anusaya or residue of Karma. This is wrong. This is untenable. Some of those Karmas can be enjoyed only in one kind of birth and some in another. They cannot com bine in one birth. It cannot be said that one portion ceases to bear fruit. There is no such cessation save by Prayaschitta or expiation. If all Karmas bear fruit after death, there will be no cause for rebirth after life in heaven or hell or in animal bodies, because in these there is no means of virtue or vice. Moreover some capital sins like the killing of a Brahmin involve many births.
    http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publi...78&format=html

    Ram had to perform a yagna / puja because he had killed a brahmin, Ravana. If you consider varna by guna, then why did he had to perform this puja to wipe of his sins. Also note that in some versions of Ramayana, when Rama wanted to do Shiva Puja in Lanka, Ravan came as a priest and did puja for Rama.

    Obviously direct quote from Veda-s is needed, but upanishads and itihasa and purana-s also have e.g. in support of Varna by birth. I also agree that there are quotes which say that varna is by guna, but as said above, guna is developed by training and some guna-s are present by birth. God gives birth in family in which one can have overall progress and finish off his prarabhdha karma.

    I humbly request you to please do not think that there is any hidden motive to hurt anyone.

    Aum

    Amrut
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrut

    Thank you for your kind comments, but actually I am being misunderstood. I am trying to say that there are many Hindus who consider the four Vedas as the corner stones to Hinduism, therefore I am not asking for quotes from Ithihasa or Purana or Smritis to support an argument for jati as vocation by birth or to support varna by birth only, I am asking for an exact quote from the four vedas that explicitly uses such terms (i.e. “the four varnas are only birth based and only the son of a Brahmin can be a Brahmin” and such – if this is the intent of the vedas it would clearly state this, so I am asking for that very specific verse, not some verses from Ramayana or Srimad Bhagavatam which some are implying are as if “watered down for the common man to understand vedas” and which are “ok to teach the common low class people”. This strikes many as an irony to claim some by birth only claim to use arguments or some sort of “fifth veda” from such scriptures (which in specific to the Ramayana I admire) while at the same moment putting them in a class for “the rest of the low classes”. No, the argument must come directly from the vedas themselves, and not from Ithihasa’s for example. If that is the stipulation of the vedas, then it would directly and explicitly be said so in the vedas. I am asking for that exact and explicit verse from one of the four Vedas, not from the Ithihasa or Purana. I am not saying Ramayana is “less than”, though it may be some others imply that the Ramayana is “less than”. I am simply looking for what is often termed a common, foundational, source across Hinduism which is the Four Vedas.

    Not everyone, e.g. not all Hindus, have Ramayana or Srimad Bhagavatam as part of their tradition. Also, quotes from certain Saints of the modern era (e.g. of the last 500 or so years) isn’t very impressive, the names that seem to be coming up are very endowed but they are not the only Saints of Hinduism, there are Hindus who really do not follow these one’s quoted at all but totally different Saints some of which come from a time much older than the modern era or were present at the very same moment as these others.

    Regarding Ravana, three are Hindus who say actually he was never killed at all, but is in a coma state and in a crypt and actually can and will come among humans again once Ganga Jal touches his body - that there is a future history of Ravana still to come, and not necessarily of dark intent. Also, while he was a very, very dark personality, there were also qualities to his original nature (and potentially future natue) that are, should I say? Admirable. I am not so sure if penance for his demise is as much because of who he was born from as far as parents or what “caste” he was, or it could be rather what he truly was in other aspects such as a great devotee of Shiva and author of some Sanskrit scripture himself.

    Specific to the subject, where is this exact and explicit Vedic quote?

    Om Namah Sivaya

  5. #5
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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste ShivaFan ji,

    I fully agree with your consent. Veda-s are supreme authority.

    Aum
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste ShivaFanji,

    You might think from OP's posts that in India, higher (Brahmin) castes are somehow declaring their supremacy and reserving rights over vedas. While it is true that to this day, Brahmins are the ones that have the rights to learn vedas and practice them, one should also know that there are varying degrees of superiority among lower castes as well (who knows how they cropped up) - for example, Vanniyar and Mukkulatthor, etc, and they are the ones causing communal riots in a grand scale characterized by extreme violence even to this day. They still practice some form of 'untouchability' between themselves - such as one belonging to a lower sect should not enter the streets belonging to the higher sect and so forth. Brahmins these days are very much subdued, after much battering from various governments that ruled India in the past 60+ yrs after independence.

    Saint Avvayyar on 'Jaathi' :


    சாதி இரண்டொழிய வேறில்லை சாற்றுங்கால்
    நீதி வழுவா நெறிமுறையின் மேதனியில்
    இட்டார் பெரியோர் இடாதார் இழிகுலத்தோர்
    பட்டாங்கில் உள்ள படி


    Saadhi Irandozhiya Verillai Saatrungaal
    Needhi Vazhuvaa Nerimuraiyin Maedhaniyil
    Ittar Periyor Idadhaar Izhikulathor
    Pattaangil Ulla Padi


    meaning, If people should be classified based on caste, the truth is to say that there are only two such classfications. The one who does not go off the path of ethical values, ethical behaviour, generosity called as Noble (Periyor) and the ones that don’t - Ignoble (Izhikulathor). Other than than there are no other castes.

    Sorry to the OP for this short post, hopefully it will not be seen as derailing, if it does, I apologize in advance.

    Thank you.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Pranam ShivaFan

    The direct quote you are looking for perhaps you want find, we know very well the Vedas are codified with layers of knowledge that is hidden in it.
    The Puranas and Ithihas helps us understand it, i don't see what your objections are, while you are happy to believe some off it yet others you want proof from the samhitas.
    i am afraid no one will oblige you it. No matter how unpalatable it looks to western eye, Varna by birth is the status quo and that is how it has been. So many logical arguments has been put forward, if that is not going to satisfy you what good an explicit verse in Vedas will prove to you.
    Hindu Dharma is based on Varnashram with Sixteen Sanskars that begins with conceptions, now ask your self how is that going to work when there are specific sanskaras for different Varnas? Birth is the only criteria by which the Varna is recognised that again (birth) is determined by Guna and Karma, Who is more apt then Dharmadev to decide that?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste ShivaFan,
    Generally, I did not want to get involved in this discussion but I could not stop myself after reading your post.

    Ved Vyasa compiled the itihasa and puranas for the people of kaliyug. It should not be taken as an insult. We the common people of kaliyug are to study the ramanaya and gita.

    Vedas are for the Brahmins to learn.

    This is the way things are and we (you and I) cannot change our tradition simply because we may not like it.

    That said, I do not have a quote for you that will satisfy, personally I do not need a quote. This 'requiring proof' from quoting this and that is also a western thing in general and a Christian thing in particular.

    I hope you have not taken any offence from my post as none as meant.

    It is NOT an insult to know that Vedas are for the Brahmin and the itihasa is for us.

    To learn the Vedas carry a huge burden/karmic debt and I feel lucky that you and I do not have to carry that burden.

    Take care,
    Quote Originally Posted by ShivaFan View Post
    Namaste

    The statements, which are based on inference and not Vedas, that "Hence, it is clear that those who are not qualified to study the veda are indeed qualified to hear the vedic message through other means, i.e. the itihAsa/purAnas" and "Smritis, purANas and itihAs give the same knowledge of Shrutis in a way they can be understood and digested by common man" seem insulting to countless Hindus if you really look at it.

    It is like saying "Vedas" (the learning of, quoting the Vedas, grammer and memorizing them) is only for "uncommon man" (viz smarter and higher birth then the riff raff) and histories such as the Ramayana are for the "common" (viz low birth, stupid people who cannot digest anything like the Vedas).

    So the Ramayana is for the stupid people (viz a "way they can be understood and digested by common man" viz stupid people). It is like saying the Ramayana, which is the life of Rama, and the purpose of Ram "is for those other, low birth people who cannot understand, you know, the stupid low castes who are not able to digest the Vedas like us high caste smart people".

    Sort of insulting to Lord Rama as well.

    Can someone give me the exact and explicite quote from one of the four Vedas that explicitly states memorizing the Vedas and it's grammer and Sanskrit, is only birth based? Not some commentary that came millions of years after the Vedas from a modern saint of the last 500 years, but from the Vedas?

    And when some commentary of some Saint is used, why is it the same four or so saints named, as if all Hindus follow them? Why isn't, for example, Lord Caitanya and His life and associates quoted for example. He doesn't count?

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Last edited by satay; 08 August 2013 at 09:04 AM.
    satay

  9. #9

    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    delete
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 17 January 2014 at 08:26 PM. Reason: irrelevant to thread

  10. #10
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    Re: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    This is related to the discussions on this thread, but is in the inquisitive approach (meaning questionary):

    What about Vaishyas that are instituted into tutelage under well knowledgeable Brahmin priests who teach the Vaishyas Mantra recitation and the studying of the Vedas?

    Is it okay? It is a very exclusive number of Vaishyas that are under such tutelage, though. Which makes sense. Because, not everyone can go through such hardcore tutelage. And, the Brahmins that have invited these students are Smarthas and even Shrautas of high Brahmin castes (Shukla's, Pandey's, Agnihotri's, Trivedi's, and Suryapuri)...

    Just asking; please ignore my post if you do not have an answer.

    ps - The Brahmins in this case are not motivated by monetary means (they aren't asking a lot of money or materialistic things of that nature); they are intrigued by the flagrant interest the Non-Brahmins have in learning the Vedas and they have even exemplified their interests by recitations and memorizations of Shruti scriptures....

    ps#2 - This happened in Baroda, Gujarat with a few cousins of mine who were initiated into the Brahmin Jati after the completion of their tutelage by Shrautas ....
    Namaste,

    Please do not expect an answer of this question from HDF members. This requires judgement, which only an authority can give. One must take this issue and approach Shankaracharya-s or Gaudapadacharya Mathadhipati or other mathadhipati-s of various other sampradaya like Vaishnava, Shaiva, etc.

    As said by Philosoraptor ji, the idea is to reach Bhagavan. The means are different. Some varNa-s are given tough routes, some easy.

    On another note,


    I have read somewhere that even Shri Madhavacharya ji also mentioned that itihAsa purANa-s convey the same meaning as said by veda-s. they are also an authority. The only difference is their way of expression of truth. They may be written in different chanda-s, but convey the same meaning, needless to say that Bhagavan Veda Vyas has authored them.

    To simplify things does not mean that it is watered down.


    ---

    It should also be mentioned that without smoke there is no fire. So it is quite possible that *some* Brahmins may have or may take undue advantage of the respect given by them.

    Lastly, only 1 % veda-s are extant. Hence much info might be lost that would give more clarity on varNa-Ashrama.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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