Results 1 to 10 of 294

Thread: Misunderstandings - VAD Threads

Threaded View

  1. #11
    Join Date
    June 2012
    Location
    Mumbai
    Age
    42
    Posts
    1,210
    Rep Power
    1365

    Re: VAD Part 2: Character and Vocation by Birth

    Namaste Respected Members,

    I cannot quote from Veda-s due to my limited study, but as it has been pointed out, words of wise men, which were authority during their days is also of utmost importance, as they have digested teachings of veda-s and other shastra-s like dharma shastra-s, etc.

    I have found out that Shankara and Ramajuna bhasya on Bhagavad Gita 18.41 gives logical explanation why Varna is by birth

    Translations provided by the authors are only posted out of mere convenience, as they are easily available on net, so that anyone can cross verify. I have taken matter from Gita Super site (link in my signature)

    ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशां शूद्राणां च परंतप।
    कर्माणि प्रविभक्तानि स्वभावप्रभवैर्गुणैः।।18.41।।

    brāhmaṇakṣatriyaviśāṅ śūdrāṇāṅ ca paraṅtapa.
    karmāṇi pravibhaktāni svabhāvaprabhavairguṇaiḥ..18.41..

    English translation by Swami Gambhirananda

    18.41 O scorcher of enemies, the duties of the Brahmanas, the Ksatriyas and the Vaisyas, as also of the Sudras have been fully classified according to the gunas born from Nature.

    English translation by Swami Sivananda

    18.41 Of Brahmanas, Kshatriyas and Vaisyas, as also of Sudras, O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities born of their own nature.

    Sanskrit commentary by Sri Sankaracharya

    -- ब्राह्मणाश्च क्षत्रियाश्च विशश्च ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशः, तेषां ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशां शूद्राणां च -- शूद्राणाम् असमासकरणम् एकजातित्वे सति वेदानधिकारात् -- हे परंतप, कर्माणि प्रविभक्तानि इतरेतरविभागेन व्यवस्थापितानि। केन? स्वभावप्रभवैः गुणैः, स्वभावः ईश्वरस्य प्रकृतिः त्रिगुणात्मिका माया सा प्रभवः येषां गुणानां ते स्वभावप्रभवाः, तैः, शमादीनि कर्माणि प्रविभक्तानि ब्राह्मणादीनाम्। अथवा ब्राह्मणस्वभावस्य सत्त्वगुणः प्रभवः कारणम्, तथा क्षत्रियस्वभावस्य सत्त्वोपसर्जनं रजः प्रभवः, वैश्यस्वभावस्य तमउपसर्जनं रजः प्रभवः, शूद्रस्वभावस्य रजउपसर्जनं तमः प्रभवः, प्रशान्त्यैश्वर्येहामूढतास्वभावदर्शनात् चतुर्णाम्। अथवा, जन्मान्तरकृतसंस्कारः प्राणिनां वर्तमानजन्मनि स्वकार्याभिमुखत्वेन अभिव्यक्तः स्वभावः, सः प्रभवो येषां गुणानां ते स्वभावप्रभवाः गुणाः; गुणप्रादुर्भावस्य निष्कारणत्वानुपपत्तेः। 'स्वभावः कारणम्' इति च कारणविशेषोपादानम्। एवं स्वभावप्रभवैः प्रकृतिभवैः सत्त्वरजस्तमोभिः गुणैः स्वकार्यानुरूपेण शमादीनि कर्माणि प्रविभक्तानि।।ननु शास्त्रप्रविभक्तानि शास्त्रेण विहितानि ब्राह्मणादीनां शमादीनि कर्माणि; कथम् उच्यते सत्त्वादिगुणप्रविभक्तानि इति? नैष दोषः; शास्त्रेणापि ब्राह्मणादीनां सत्त्वादिगुणविशेषापेक्षयैव शमादीनि कर्माणि प्रविभक्तानि, न गुणानपेक्षया, इति शास्त्रप्रविभक्तान्यपि कर्माणि गुणप्रविभक्तानि इति उच्यते।।कानि पुनः तानि कर्माणि इति, उच्यते -- ।।18.41।।


    Hindi translation by Sri Harikrishandas Goenka (on Sri Sankaracharya's Sanskrit Commentary)

    तथा सम्पूर्ण गीताशास्त्रका इस प्रकार उपसंहार भी किया जाना चाहिये कि 'परम पुरुषार्थकी सिद्धि चाहनेवालोंके द्वारा अनुष्ठान किये जानेयोग्य यह इतना ही समस्त वेद और स्मृतियोंका अभिप्राय है' अतः इस अभिप्रायसे ये 'ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशाम्' इत्यादि श्लोक आरम्भ किये जाते हैं -- हे परन्तप ! ब्राह्मण, क्षत्रिय और वैश्य -- इन तीनोंके और शूद्रोंके भी कर्म विभक्त किये हुए हैं अर्थात् परस्पर विभागपूर्वक निश्चित किये हुए हैं। ब्राह्मणादिके साथ शूद्रोंको मिलाकर-समास करके न कहनेका अभिप्राय यह है कि शूद्र द्विज न होनेके कारण वेद-पठनमें उनका अधिकार नहीं है। किसके द्वारा विभक्त किये गये हैं? स्वभावसे उत्पन्न हुए गुणोंके द्वारा। स्वभाव यानी ईश्वरकी प्रकृति -- त्रिगुणात्मिका माया, वह माया जिन गुणोंके प्रभवका यानी उत्पत्तिका कारण है, ऐसे स्वभावप्रभव गुणोंके द्वारा ब्राह्मणादिके, शम आदि कर्म विभक्त किये गये हैं। अथवा यों समझो कि ब्राह्मणस्वभावका कारण सत्त्वगुण है, वैसे ही क्षत्रियस्वभावका कारण सत्त्वमिश्रित रजोगुण है, वैश्यस्वभावका कारण तमोमिश्रित रजोगुण है और शूद्रस्वभावका कारण रजोमिश्रित तमोगुण है। क्योंकि उपर्युक्त चारों वर्णोंमें ( गुणोंके अनुसार ) क्रमसे शान्ति, ऐश्वर्य, चेष्टा और मूढ़ता -- ये अलग-अलग स्वभाव देखे जाते हैं। अथवा यों समझो कि प्राणियोंके जन्मान्तरमें किये हुए कर्मोंके संस्कार, जो वर्तमान जन्ममें अपने कार्यके अभिमुख होकर व्यक्त हुए हैं, उनका नाम स्वभाव है। ऐसा स्वभाव जिन गुणोंकी उत्पत्तिका कारण है, वे स्वभावप्रभव गुण हैं। गुणोंका प्रादुर्भाव बिना कारणके नहीं बन सकता। इसलिये 'स्वभाव उनकी उत्पत्तिका कारण है' यह कहकर कारणविशेषका प्रतिपादन किया गया है। इस प्रकार स्वभावसे उत्पन्न हुए अर्थात् प्रकृतिसे उत्पन्न हुए सत्त्व, रज और तम -- इन तीनों गुणोंद्वारा अपने-अपने कार्यके अनुरूप शमादि कर्म विभक्त किये गये हैं। पू0 -- ब्राह्मणादि वर्णोंके शम आदि कर्म तो शास्त्रद्वारा विभक्त हैं, अर्थात् शास्त्रद्वारा निश्चित किये गये हैं; फिर यह कैसे कहा जाता है, कि सत्त्व आदि तीनों गुणोंद्वारा विभक्त किये गये हैं? उ0 -- यह दोष नहीं है, क्योंकि शास्त्रद्वारा भी ब्राह्मणादिके शमादि कर्म सत्त्वादि गुण-भेदोंकी अपेक्षासे ही विभक्त किये गये हैं, बिना गुणोंकी अपेक्षासे नहीं। अतः शास्त्रद्वारा विभक्त किये हुए भी कर्म, गुणोंद्वारा विभक्त किये गये हैं, ऐसा कहा जाता है ।।18.41।।

    English translation by Swami Gambhirananda (on Sri Sankaracharya's Sanskrit Commentary)

    18.41 Parantapa, O scorcher of enemies; karmani, the duties; brahmana-ksatriya-visam, of the Brahmanas, the Ksatriyas and the Vaisyas; ca, as also; sudranam, of the Surdras-the Sudras have not been included with the others (in the compund word) because, owing to their having a single birth, Sudras have no right to be invested with the sacred thread which, in the case of the other three castes, symbolizes a second birth. they have no right to (the study of) the Vedas; pravibhaktani, have been fully classified, have been prescribed by making distinctions among them;-according to what?-gunahi, according to the gunas; svabhava-prabhavaih, born from Nature.Nature means the Praktrti of God, His Maya consisting of the three gunas. 'Born from Nature' means 'born of these three gunas. In accordnace with these the duties such as control of the internal organs, etc. of the Brahmanas and others have been classified. Or (the meaning is): The source of the nature of the Brahmanas is the quality of sattva. Similarly, the source of the nature of the Ksatriyas is rajas, with sattva as a subordinate (quality); the source of the nature of the Vaisyas is rajas, with tamas as the subordinate (quality); the source of the nature of the Sudras is tamas, with rajas as the subordinate (quality); for the natures of the four are seen to be tranquillity. lordliness, industriousness and dullness respectively. Or, svabhava (nature) means the (individual) tendencies of creatures earned in their past lives, which have become manifest in the present life for yielding their own results. The gunas which have that svabhava as their source (prabhava) are svabhava-prabhavah gunah.Since the manifestation of the gunas cannot logically be uncaused, therefore a specific cause i.e. the tendencies are the efficient cause, and Nature is the material cause. has been posited by saying that Nature is the cause.Thus, the duties such as control of the internal organs etc. have been classified in keeping with the effects of the gunas, sattva, rajas and tamas, which are born of Nature, born of Prakrti.Objection: Well, are not the duties like controlling the internal organs etc. of the Brahmanas and others classified and enjoined by the scriptures? Why is it said that they are classified according to the gunas sattva etc.?Reply: This objection is not valid. For, the duties like controlling the internal organs etc. of the Brahmanas and others have been classified even by the scriptures verily in keeping with the specific qualities sattva etc.; certainly, not without reference to the gunas. Hence, though the duties have been divided by the scriputres, they are said to have been classified according to the gunas.Which, again, are those duties? They are being spoken of:

    Sanskrit commentary by Sri Ramanuja

    ब्राह्मणक्षत्रियविशां स्वकीयो भावः स्वभावः; ब्रह्मणादिजन्महेतुभूतं प्राचीनं कर्म इत्यर्थः। तत्प्रभवाः सत्त्वादयो गुणाः; ब्राह्मणस्य स्वभावप्रभवो रजस्तमोऽभिभवेन उद्भूतः सत्त्वगुणः, क्षत्रियस्य स्वभावप्रभवः सत्त्वतमसोः अभिभवेन उद्भूतो रजोगुणः, वैश्यस्य स्वभावप्रभवः सत्त्वरजोऽभिभवेन अल्पोद्रिक्तः तमोगुणः, शूद्रस्य स्वभावप्रभवः तु रजःसत्त्वाभिभवेन अत्युद्रिक्तः तमोगुणः। एभिः स्वभावप्रभवैः गुणैः सह प्रविभक्तानि कर्माणि शास्त्रैः प्रतिपादितानि। ब्राह्मणादय एवंगुणकाः तेषां च तानि कर्माणि वृत्तयः च एता इति हि विभज्य प्रतिपादयन्ति शास्त्राणि ।।18.41।।

    English translation by Swami Adidevananda (on Sri Ramanuja's Sanskrit Commentary)

    18.41 The nature of Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas, and Sudras are due to their respective inherent dispositions. The meaning is that their past Karma has been the cause of determining births as Brahmanas etc. The Sattva and other Gunas are the result of such Karma. The Sattva-guna is born from the inherent nature of the Brahmana becoming dominant by suppressing the qualities of Rajas and Tamas. The quality of Rajas originates from the inherent nature of the Ksatriyas becoming dominant by suppressing qualities of Sattva and Tamas. Tamoguna arises from the inherent nature of the Vaisya, becoming dominant in a little way by suppressing Sattva and Rajas. The duties and works assigned to them according to the Gunas constituting their inherent nature, are expounded and allotted by the Sastras in the order described. For the Sastras analyse that the Brahmanas etc., possess such and such attributes and such and such are their duties and occupations.

    Please os chintan on guna, svabhava, svadharma, which is explained in later verses in same chapter.

    I hope this helps shed some light on this issue.

    All is been done in good spirit.

    On a personal note, brahmins have been imposed much more restrictions like they are not allowed to take any job

    Brahmins have to dedicate upto 40 years of life to master veda-s

    Vaidika: One how knows one veda. Dedicates 100 years for one veda
    Dvivedi / Dave: One who dedicates 20 years for learning 2 veda-s
    Trivedi: One who dedicates 30 years for learning 3 veda-s
    Chaturvedi: One who dedicates 40 years for learning 4 veda-s

    To add to complication, as mentioned in one of the articles which I have given link in earlier post, there are many methods of chanting, natural and reverse. To master all of them is extremely difficult.

    In olden days, everything was learned verbally. Veda-s were not written in palm leaves.

    Hence it takes time to learn all.

    Now you see why there are gradations among brahmins too. The respect they get epends upon their knowledge of veda-s.

    Ofcourse, to retain brahminhood, one must follow and practice i.e. life the life as commanded by veda-s.

    For everything right from waking up, to taking sip of water to going for urinating, to eating to sleeping etc, Brahmins have to follow customs and chant mantra-s.

    While according to Swami Ramsukhdas ji, an uncontroversial recognised saint, for spiritual purpose, emotions are given more importance, as said in Gita.

    This is to raise the level of brahmins that mere parroting will not help one progress beyond a point. Also all varna-s are free to chant God's name.

    Aum

    Amrut
    Last edited by Amrut; 08 August 2013 at 11:06 AM.
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Should Caste threads have Their Own Section?
    By ShivaFan in forum Feedback
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 12 June 2013, 01:42 AM
  2. Quality threads --- how to locate them easily
    By devotee in forum Feedback
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02 March 2012, 11:26 PM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01 August 2011, 11:56 AM
  4. threads
    By henrikhankhagnell in forum Feedback
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 15 June 2011, 02:04 AM
  5. Similar Threads
    By satay in forum Feedback
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 21 April 2011, 07:59 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •